Jodi Ann Arias shot and stabbed her ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander to death

[GlassHat]

I was responding specifically to this post:



You clearly believe that child molestation as a crime is worse than murder as a crime. You've stated as much in different ways time and again, regardless of what spurned this discussion. Read your own posts.

And you started by telling me that I was doing what animosity said I was doing, which is why I responded with that. Because I have done no such thing. Go back and read my posts, her posts and your own.

[puzzld]

OK. Not to derail the child molestation conversation (I'm sure there's a thread for that somewhere, btw) I think the defense is going at it all wrong with the self defense arguments, unless they come up with something new...

I think a crime of passion argument would have played better. Argue:

A. Jodi loved Travis
B. Jodi changed herself, gave up who she was and what she believed for Travis. She converted to his religion, she had sex when and where and how he wanted. She posed for pictures and took pictures because that's what he wanted. She moved from her home to be close to Travis
C. Travis tossed her aside for someone (several someones?) else. Not only is he betraying Jodi, he's going to end up destroying someone else, Jodi can see it coming.
D. She comes to Travis (bringing the gun for protection on the trip) to try to convince him that he's breaking her heart... destroying what they could have together, he talks her into doing the nasty and some more pictures, then tells her it's over. She flies into a rage. Really doesn't remember what happened next. Next thing she knows, she's back on the road, or maybe even in bed with what's his name, She calls and calls but Travis doesn't answer...

I'm not saying this is what really happened, but I think it's closer to the truth than self defense, and more likely to sway the jury.

[GlassHat]

OK. Not to derail the child molestation conversation (I'm sure there's a thread for that somewhere, btw) I think the defense is going at it all wrong with the self defense arguments, unless they come up with something new...

I think a crime of passion argument would have played better. Argue:

A. Jodi loved Travis
B. Jodi changed herself, gave up who she was and what she believed for Travis. She converted to his religion, she had sex when and where and how he wanted. She posed for pictures and took pictures because that's what he wanted. She moved from her home to be close to Travis
C. Travis tossed her aside for someone (several someones?) else. Not only is he betraying Jodi, he's going to end up destroying someone else, Jodi can see it coming.
D. She comes to Travis (bringing the gun for protection on the trip) to try to convince him that he's breaking her heart... destroying what they could have together, he talks her into doing the nasty and some more pictures, then tells her it's over. She flies into a rage. Really doesn't remember what happened next. Next thing she knows, she's back on the road, or maybe even in bed with what's his name, She calls and calls but Travis doesn't answer...

I'm not saying this is what really happened, but I think it's closer to the truth than self defense, and more likely to sway the jury.

100% agree. Well put.

[zeebee]

And you started by telling me that I was doing what animosity said I was doing, which is why I responded with that. Because I have done no such thing. Go back and read my posts, her posts and your own.

Yes, I did respond initially by agreeing with animosity that you believe that when you think the victim of the murder is partially to blame for the murder, then it is less severe a crime than child molestation in general. Because that at least makes some kind of sense. I did not realize that what you actually believe is that child molestation as a crime is worse than murder as a crime. Because that's ridiculous.

[Shins]

Oh geez. Convictions and charges alike hinge on a multitude of things. So don't say they should or should not hinge on certain feelings. Don't you think victims families have a voice in most murder case conviction penalties? Yes, personal feelings play a huge part in penalty phases especially. And newsflash, crimes against children are generally stiffer, especially sexual crimes. So yeah

Oh, and btw, that smite was from me. Just forgot to sign it. When I can give you another one, bank on it cause I'm gonna.

You've smited me twice before, and not signed it.

This discussion turned snappy when you told people they shouldn't have kids. I get that that is your opinion and all, but not all opinions are made to be heard. "If don't have anything nice to say... etc."

I feel like you act surprised that people react the way they do to some of the things you say. You're entitled to your opinion 100%, but you tend to get directly and personally offensive, whether it's intended or not. I wish you wouldn't do that. It creates a wall where people will refuse to see your point because they're so put off from your attitude, and they figure you can't possibly have a valid point.


Moving on, I'm about to get pretty real here...

I was sexually assaulted when I was a young teen by my ex-stepdad's buddy (who was also a local cop). No, it was not welcomed, for those who might think I was being a pervy tween. My parents were not around and he was in my house when I came home from a friends... Anyways, that fucked me up in the head pretty bad. I now am robbed of any ounce of innocence I have, and the people who are supposed to protect me (cops and my "dads crew") are now the enemy in my eyes. I had to see a therapist and eventually my mom's marriage fell apart when she learned my ex-stepdad was continuing a friendship with this D-bag. (This D-bag also introduced my ex-stepdad to the whore he cheated on my mom with, but I digress on that subject. Basically - that "good christian man" was a disgusting pig with disgusting pig friends.)

This was a long ass time ago, and I'm fine now. Yeah, I've seen the D-bag (now former cop) out in public places, and a deep rooted feeling of rage and embarrassment over takes me - but that's it. It definitely changed my life forever, but your perspective can determine how you come out of the negative. I think about it now and again and it makes me mad, but it happened. Can't take it back. I have a nice life now with a wonderful guy. I'm certainly happy I'm not dead.



Murder is irreversible. It's absolute. While molestation and rape are horrendous and will change a persons life forever, it can be healed, and that person has a chance to mend themselves. There's a reason why the legal system sees Criminal Homicide as the number one most punishable crime.

[zeebee]

OK. Not to derail the child molestation conversation (I'm sure there's a thread for that somewhere, btw) I think the defense is going at it all wrong with the self defense arguments, unless they come up with something new...

I think a crime of passion argument would have played better. Argue:

A. Jodi loved Travis
B. Jodi changed herself, gave up who she was and what she believed for Travis. She converted to his religion, she had sex when and where and how he wanted. She posed for pictures and took pictures because that's what he wanted. She moved from her home to be close to Travis
C. Travis tossed her aside for someone (several someones?) else. Not only is he betraying Jodi, he's going to end up destroying someone else, Jodi can see it coming.
D. She comes to Travis (bringing the gun for protection on the trip) to try to convince him that he's breaking her heart... destroying what they could have together, he talks her into doing the nasty and some more pictures, then tells her it's over. She flies into a rage. Really doesn't remember what happened next. Next thing she knows, she's back on the road, or maybe even in bed with what's his name, She calls and calls but Travis doesn't answer...

I'm not saying this is what really happened, but I think it's closer to the truth than self defense, and more likely to sway the jury.

I could be wrong, but I think that would fall under a temporary insanity defense? I don't think Arizona allows that defense.

[zeebee]

Glass hat is on a smiting spree.

[GlassHat]

You've smited me twice before, and not signed it.

This discussion turned snappy when you told people they shouldn't have kids. I get that that is your opinion and all, but not all opinions are made to be heard. "If don't have anything nice to say... etc."

I feel like you act surprised that people react the way they do to some of the things you say. You're entitled to your opinion 100%, but you tend to get directly and personally offensive, whether it's intended or not. I wish you wouldn't do that. It creates a wall where people will refuse to see your point because they're so put off from your attitude, and they figure you can't possibly have a valid point.


Moving on, I'm about to get pretty real here...

I was sexually assaulted when I was a young teen by my ex-stepdad's buddy (who was also a local cop). No, it was not welcomed, for those who might think I was being a pervy tween. My parents were not around and he was in my house when I came home from a friends... Anyways, that fucked me up in the head pretty bad. I now am robbed of any ounce of innocence I have, and the people who are supposed to protect me (cops and my "dads crew") are now the enemy in my eyes. I had to see a therapist and eventually my mom's marriage fell apart when she learned my ex-stepdad was continuing a friendship with this D-bag. (This D-bag also introduced my ex-stepdad to the whore he cheated on my mom with, but I digress on that subject. Basically - that "good christian man" was a disgusting pig with disgusting pig friends.)

This was a long ass time ago, and I'm fine now. Yeah, I've seen the D-bag (now former cop) out in public places, and a deep rooted feeling of rage and embarrassment over takes me - but that's it. It definitely changed my life forever, but your perspective can determine how you come out of the negative. I think about it now and again and it makes me mad, but it happened. Can't take it back. I have a nice life now with a wonderful guy. I'm certainly happy I'm not dead.



Murder is irreversible. It's absolute. While molestation and rape are horrendous and will change a persons life forever, it can be healed, and that person has a chance to mend themselves. There's a reason why the legal system sees Homicide as the number one most punishable crime.

As far as the smites go, premium members will see them signed or not. When you're used to that it passes you that you have to sign them to be seen. Anyone here who knows me knows that I certainly am not hiding, if that's what you're suggesting. But, this is even being discussed, why? Moving on..

I make no apologies for what I said about I hope they didn't have kids. It's a lot easier for someone to say something disregarding a child when they don't have any of their own.

Sorry you went through that. Your life is forever changed. And yeah, there's a reason homicide is punished more harshly. The reason is because while the states voted for the same penalties, the supreme court overturned it. Otherwise, it would have the same penalties.

[zeebee]

I was sexually assaulted when I was a young teen by my ex-stepdad's buddy (who was also a local cop). No, it was not welcomed, for those who might think I was being a pervy tween. My parents were not around and he was in my house when I came home from a friends... Anyways, that fucked me up in the head pretty bad. I now am robbed of any ounce of innocence I have, and the people who are supposed to protect me (cops and my "dads crew") are now the enemy in my eyes. I had to see a therapist and eventually my mom's marriage fell apart when she learned my ex-stepdad was continuing a friendship with this D-bag. (This D-bag also introduced my ex-stepdad to the whore he cheated on my mom with, but I digress on that subject. Basically - that "good christian man" was a disgusting pig with disgusting pig friends.)

This was a long ass time ago, and I'm fine now. Yeah, I've seen the D-bag (now former cop) out in public places, and a deep rooted feeling of rage and embarrassment over takes me - but that's it. It definitely changed my life forever, but your perspective can determine how you come out of the negative. I think about it now and again and it makes me mad, but it happened. Can't take it back. I have a nice life now with a wonderful guy. I'm certainly happy I'm not dead.



Murder is irreversible. It's absolute. While molestation and rape are horrendous and will change a persons life forever, it can be healed, and that person has a chance to mend themselves. There's a reason why the legal system sees Homicide as the number one most punishable crime.

I'm sorry that happened to you.

[GlassHat]

Thanks. Excuse my lameness...what's RO?

Restraining order.

I'm sorry about your situation too. I can't imagine having to deal with that from someone I loved. You said he was 14 when the crime happened. Do you think maybe he's rehabilitated now and is a different person?

[Shins]

As far as the smites go, premium members will see them signed or not. When you're used to that it passes you that you have to sign them to be seen. Anyone here who knows me knows that I certainly am not hiding, if that's what you're suggesting. But, this is even being discussed, why? Moving on..

I make no apologies for what I said about I hope they didn't have kids. It's a lot easier for someone to say something disregarding a child when they don't have any of their own.

Sorry you went through that. Your life is forever changed. And yeah, there's a reason homicide is punished more harshly. The reason is because while the states voted for the same penalties, the supreme court overturned it. Otherwise, it would have the same penalties.

Well all right then.

[Shins]

I'm sorry that happened to you.

In a twisted way, it made me who I am today.

[zeebee]

That's on you. I'm not concerned with what you think I think.

Just because I think he was a terrible person doesn't mean I think he deserves to die. If that were the case I'd want half the human race wiped out. Be real. He didn't deserve to die, but I'm not sure she deserves to die either. Maybe she does. I'm undecided on that. At a minimum she does need to sit locked up for a lifetime, but to take her life I'm not so sure. I don't think the jury will think so either.

I don't believe in the death penalty. Partially because innocent people could be sent to death, and partially because I don't believe in an eye for an eye. Killing someone for killing someone makes no sense to me. Locking them up forever makes more sense.

But regardless, the punishment is not for me to decide. If I were on a jury and had to decide if someone was guilty or not, I would not take into consideration the punishment. I'd vote based on the evidence, not on what the punishment might be.

[GlassHat]

I don't believe in the death penalty. Partially because innocent people could be sent to death, and partially because I don't believe in an eye for an eye. Killing someone for killing someone makes no sense to me. Locking them up forever makes more sense.

But regardless, the punishment is not for me to decide. If I were on a jury and had to decide if someone was guilty or not, I would not take into consideration the punishment. I'd vote based on the evidence, not on what the punishment might be.

I'm divided on the death penalty. I have no problems with it being applied to cases of certainty. This is a case of certainty as far as who did it. She did it and we know it, but does her reasons for murdering him justify sentencing her to death. That's where my uncertainty comes in. I think it's a case by case basis on where I stand with it. For me to convict to death the proof would have to be stronger than just reasonable doubt. I'd have to be certain that the person on trial is the one who committed the crime. Then I'd weigh the mitigating/aggravating factors.

[zeebee]

In a twisted way, it made me who I am today.

[beli]

I think he had a whore/Madonna thing going with Jodi and Lisa. I think he was actually quite happy when Lisa rebuffed his sexual advances because then he could keep thinking of her in this simplistic pure wife-worthy image. Like a drug user, he went to Jodi to get what he wanted and was addicted to but he was ashamed of it. I really think it made him the happiest and he would not have been happy had he wed one of the virginal girls. I think he was drawn to that dark thing that was in Jodi because it reflected some of the darkness in himself.

I've never heard of that expression. Like a good girl/bad girl thing?

[zeebee]

I'm divided on the death penalty. I have no problems with it being applied to cases of certainty. This is a case of certainty as far as who did it. She did it and we know it, but does her reasons for murdering him justify sentencing her to death. That's where my uncertainty comes in. I think it's a case by case basis on where I stand with it. For me to convict to death the proof would have to be stronger than just reasonable doubt. I'd have to be certain that the person on trial is the one who committed the crime. Then I'd weigh the mitigating/aggravating factors.

IMHO, because I don't believe in the death penalty, period, I think she deserves to be locked up forever, no possibility of parole. Society needs to be protected from an individual who at the breaking point is capable of hacking someone to pieces.

[twilit]

I've never heard of that expression. Like a good girl/bad girl thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna...3whore_complex

[zeebee]

I've never heard of that expression. Like a good girl/bad girl thing?

The Madonna-whore complex, it's a Freudian concept.

[beli]

Ah, okay. Thanks. I understand now

[GlassHat]

IMHO, because I don't believe in the death penalty, period, I think she deserves to be locked up forever, no possibility of parole. Society needs to be protected from an individual who at the breaking point is capable of hacking someone to pieces.

As far as protecting society from her, I agree. Regardless of what her reasons were for actually murdering Travis I think the she is lacking something. I'm not a psychologist so I don't know what, but her eyes look hollow. Aside from the fact that she murdered him, she allowed him to abuse her continually and not only that, she sought out that abuse at times. I think if she were to be released into society that under similar circumstances to the relationship between she and Travis she would do this again. Society is not safe if she is free, imo, but I'm not sure she can help it. I think she needs to be protected from herself as well as society being protected from her.

[beli]

As far as protecting society from her, I agree. Regardless of what her reasons were for actually murdering Travis I think the she is lacking something. I'm not a psychologist so I don't know what, but her eyes look hollow. Aside from the fact that she murdered him, she allowed him to abuse her continually and not only that, she sought out that abuse at times. I think if she were to be released into society that under similar circumstances to the relationship between she and Travis she would do this again. Society is not safe if she is free, imo, but I'm not sure she can help it. I think she needs to be protected from herself as well as society being protected from her.

I've mentioned it before, but sometimes people think sex=love. I've had my heart broken by my ex. He was an asshole, but I kept going back until some really bad shit went down. Sometimes we confuse things and end up hurt because we allow ourselves to get hurt.

[zeebee]

As far as protecting society from her, I agree. Regardless of what her reasons were for actually murdering Travis I think the she is lacking something. I'm not a psychologist so I don't know what, but her eyes look hollow. Aside from the fact that she murdered him, she allowed him to abuse her continually and not only that, she sought out that abuse at times. I think if she were to be released into society that under similar circumstances to the relationship between she and Travis she would do this again. Society is not safe if she is free, imo, but I'm not sure she can help it. I think she needs to be protected from herself as well as society being protected from her.

A lot of women find themselves in abusive relationships, but they don't kill. I don't think these women all need to be locked up for allowing themselves to be in abusive relationships, but I do think they need psychological help.

You're right though in that there is something very wrong with Jodi. I'm not a psychologist either, but I think she probably has a personality disorder of some type. Either anti-social personality disorder or borderline personality disorder. But I don't think that she thinks that there is anything wrong with her. But again, I am not a psychologist.

[Justice11]

OK. Not to derail the child molestation conversation (I'm sure there's a thread for that somewhere, btw) I think the defense is going at it all wrong with the self defense arguments, unless they come up with something new...

I think a crime of passion argument would have played better. Argue:

A. Jodi loved Travis
B. Jodi changed herself, gave up who she was and what she believed for Travis. She converted to his religion, she had sex when and where and how he wanted. She posed for pictures and took pictures because that's what he wanted. She moved from her home to be close to Travis
C. Travis tossed her aside for someone (several someones?) else. Not only is he betraying Jodi, he's going to end up destroying someone else, Jodi can see it coming.
D. She comes to Travis (bringing the gun for protection on the trip) to try to convince him that he's breaking her heart... destroying what they could have together, he talks her into doing the nasty and some more pictures, then tells her it's over. She flies into a rage. Really doesn't remember what happened next. Next thing she knows, she's back on the road, or maybe even in bed with what's his name, She calls and calls but Travis doesn't answer...

I'm not saying this is what really happened, but I think it's closer to the truth than self defense, and more likely to sway the jury.

While I fully believe this was premeditated murder, I can see a jury being swayed by crime of passion more than self defense. I've often wondered why the defense is not going that route??? I thought it was because she hopes to get off scot-free. But, idk. I feel like I'm missing some info on what is allowable in AZ and what the punishments are, etc.

I don't believe in the death penalty. Partially because innocent people could be sent to death, and partially because I don't believe in an eye for an eye. Killing someone for killing someone makes no sense to me. Locking them up forever makes more sense.

But regardless, the punishment is not for me to decide. If I were on a jury and had to decide if someone was guilty or not, I would not take into consideration the punishment. I'd vote based on the evidence, not on what the punishment might be.

Yeah, I am torn on the death penalty too. I've read some awful crimes where I think I would be for it, but ultimately it leaves me uneasy. I've finally landed on what I've bolded up above (from your comment.) It's not for me to decide the punishment, just the guilt based on the evidence (if I were on a jury.)

IMHO, because I don't believe in the death penalty, period, I think she deserves to be locked up forever, no possibility of parole. Society needs to be protected from an individual who at the breaking point is capable of hacking someone to pieces.

This. Totally. Also...I hate the possibility of parole for murder convictions. Life without parole!

As far as protecting society from her, I agree. Regardless of what her reasons were for actually murdering Travis I think the she is lacking something. I'm not a psychologist so I don't know what, but her eyes look hollow. Aside from the fact that she murdered him, she allowed him to abuse her continually and not only that, she sought out that abuse at times. I think if she were to be released into society that under similar circumstances to the relationship between she and Travis she would do this again. Society is not safe if she is free, imo, but I'm not sure she can help it. I think she needs to be protected from herself as well as society being protected from her.

What she is lacking is a conscience. In my very much non-expert opinion, I believe she is a textbook sociopath. The people who want her set free (not you obviously, freaks on the Jodi is innocent page) should think about if they want her dating their brother or son, or having access to their children if she were set free. I bet most of them wouldn't want to be within 10 feet from her in real life.

[puzzld]

I could be wrong, but I think that would fall under a temporary insanity defense? I don't think Arizona allows that defense.

Well it may or may not be temporary insanity and I don't know what the law is in Arizona... but if the jury buys it, what it does do is take premeditation off the table. The argument is "no of course she didn't plan this" and fwiw I don't buy that this was planned. My corgi could plan a better murder. If it wasn't premeditated, then I think you won't get the death penalty from the jury. (Just like Casey Anthony)

I was sexually assaulted when I was a young teen by my ex-stepdad's buddy (who was also a local cop).

In a twisted way, it made me who I am today.

I was 9. He's dead now. If it wouldn't mean a trip out of town I'd go piss on his grave. But, I'm not losing any sleep over anymore. I at least have the consolation of knowing that by speaking up, I ended the abuse for my 4 year old cousin. But murder is worse. But I agree, something like that changes who and what you are.

I've mentioned it before, but sometimes people think sex=love. I've had my heart broken by my ex. He was an asshole, but I kept going back until some really bad shit went down. Sometimes we confuse things and end up hurt because we allow ourselves to get hurt.

Very true.