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Thread: Jahi McMath (13) died for real five years after she was declared brain dead following surgery complications

  1. #376
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *crickets* View Post
    Vasopressin in this setting would be used to treat DI (diabetes insipidus) which causes the kidneys to lose their ability to concentrate urine. This results in very large amounts of very dilute urine being excreted (specific gravity close to water) which if untreated causes dehydration and high sodium levels. DI is common in head injured patients.

    Vasopressin is not used routinely to support blood pressure. It is used in code situations and hypotension related to septic shock. If she needed a drip to maintain BP I would expect to see her on dopamine or phenylephrine. The fact that her only med is vasopressin actually tells me that she is hemodynamically stable.

    *credentials available on request.

    I'm not going to dispute the treatment for DI or that it is uncommon in head injured patients. I'm aware of it as many of the organ donors I have managed suffered TBI's (traumatic brain injury).

    Vasopressin may be a preferred method of therapy in people who are being resuscitated but Jahi is not. She's being maintained, so in this situation, vasopressin is very much appropriate. Adding dopamine will dilate the vascular structure and cause her to be hypotensive, which she probably already is, and why the vasopressin is being used.

    Vasopressin and dopamine therapies are very tricky to balance with a dead person. She also isn't having routine labs performed to know the pH balance, electrolyte balance, or even organ function. The hospital was court ordered to maintain blood pressure so they are doing that by observing vitals and without the knowledge of what her organ function is.



    Maintaining a dead body is vastly different from maintaining a live person. Even with credentials. It's a completely different world.

    Sorry to disappoint, I have no interest in your credentials. I have my own.


    ETA: That statement is also something said by nurses to professionals in pre-hospital medicine.

    Until nurses become professionals in pre-hospital medicine.
    Last edited by morbidT; 12-31-2013 at 10:36 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  2. #377
    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    I'm pretty sure disinformation is not a word. Just sayin.

    They have made several attempts to explain to the family what Jahi's current situation is. I don't think it's the hospital staff that is the problem here. I think the family is convinced the hospital staff are liars and choose not to listen to them.
    actually, disinformation is a word, especially in conspiracy theory... i know this because i am into all things illuminati. usually paired with 'agents of', disinformation refers to a selective and strategic campaign to provide misleading information to the public.

    i do think that queena meant misinformation, but disinformation may also apply with the right to life folks using this as an opportunity to push their agenda.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation
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  3. #378

  4. #379
    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    do you read the vigilant citizen too?
    Quote Originally Posted by songbirdsong View Post
    "Say, you know who could handle this penis? MY MOTHER."

  5. #380
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    do you read the vigilant citizen too?



    Off to watch Twilight Zone marathon and get my NYE on!

    Have fun, be safe, and wear your helmets!



    Also, I think I read an article that says the family is now looking into a facility in Arizona. Did I read that here?


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  6. #381
    Cousin Greg Angiebla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    actually, disinformation is a word, especially in conspiracy theory... i know this because i am into all things illuminati. usually paired with 'agents of', disinformation refers to a selective and strategic campaign to provide misleading information to the public.

    i do think that queena meant misinformation, but disinformation may also apply with the right to life folks using this as an opportunity to push their agenda.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation
    Just kidding....

    I stand corrected

    I am not one nor do I associate with conspiracy theorists, so that's probably why I have never heard of this particular terminology.

    "The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin

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  7. #382
    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    Just kidding....

    I stand corrected

    I am not one nor do I associate with conspiracy theorists, so that's probably why I have never heard of this particular terminology.
    surprise! j/k... i am not one, but i love reading about the different conspiracies.
    Quote Originally Posted by songbirdsong View Post
    "Say, you know who could handle this penis? MY MOTHER."

  8. #383
    Senior Member *crickets*'s Avatar
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    Dolan & Jahi's fam speaking outside hospital:

    Laura Anthony @LauraAnthony7: #Jahi attorney says hospital refusing to allow Dr. to come in a put trache in-"only holdup." http://t.co/2xFueX7vdI
    12/31/13 5:05 PM
    Laura Anthony @LauraAnthony7: #Jahi attorney says "It's none of their (the hospital) damn business" where she is moved. http://t.co/NSraB0yfQ3
    12/31/13 5:08 PM
    Laura Anthony @LauraAnthony7: #Jahi attorney says Children's Hospital has "stranglehold" on Jahi's release from hospital. http://t.co/QIHpIhhyHx
    12/31/13 5:11 PM
    Laura Anthony @LauraAnthony7: #jahi's mother says "I hate it" when Children's Hospital spokesman refers to Jahi as "the body." http://t.co/dS5zcyU2P7
    12/31/13 5:14 PM
    Laura Anthony @LauraAnthony7: "They won't even feed my daughter and that is so hurtful," says Jahi's mother. http://t.co/gmD0KWOLhn
    12/31/13 5:16 PM
    Laura Anthony @LauraAnthony7: This is letter Hospital sent #Jahi's family saying won't put in trache tube or allow another doc to do it. http://t.co/V3QhKj8K8k
    12/31/13 5:18 PM
    Last edited by *crickets*; 12-31-2013 at 01:39 PM.

  9. #384
    Senior Member *crickets*'s Avatar
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    Laura Anthony @LauraAnthony7: #Jahi's uncle Omari Sealey just told me "you are not allowed to ask me one more question about insurance." Say finances not an issue.
    12/31/13 5:19 PM
    Ooohh..."you are not allowed to ask me that"? To a reporter, at a public media event you staged? Ohhh-kayyy...

    @michisreal: @LauraAnthony7 @abc7newsBayArea if finances are not an issue, they should return all donations! They're lying. No insurance covers dead ppl
    12/31/13 5:44 PM
    it's getting messy..
    Last edited by *crickets*; 12-31-2013 at 01:48 PM.

  10. #385
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    Liars. They have an agenda. And they don't care who it hurts along the way. Including her legacy. Selfish assholes. Every last one of them.
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  11. #386
    Cousin Greg Angiebla's Avatar
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    Laura Anthony @LauraAnthony7: "They won't even feed my daughter and that is so hurtful," says Jahi's mother. http://t.co/gmD0KWOLhn
    12/31/13 5:16 PM

    This woman needs to quit talking shit about the hospital. Why would she need to be fed? The food is just going to sit in her stomach.

    "The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin

    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
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  12. #387
    Senior Member *crickets*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73 View Post
    Liars. They have an agenda. And they don't care who it hurts along the way. Including her legacy. Selfish assholes. Every last one of them.
    BB, I think the uncle is the one with the agenda. He's the one who originally contacted Dolan and he seems to have assumed the role of spokesman. The mom I think is just griefstricken (and very religious.)

    ETA re the uncle -- I mean, Jahi is not his kid. Why is he leading the charge, so to speak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    Laura Anthony @LauraAnthony7: "They won't even feed my daughter and that is so hurtful," says Jahi's mother. http://t.co/gmD0KWOLhn
    12/31/13 5:16 PM

    This woman needs to quit talking shit about the hospital. Why would she need to be fed? The food is just going to sit in her stomach.
    Actually she could absorb tube feedings like anyone else. Her body is functioning just fine, it's her brain that's dead.
    Last edited by *crickets*; 12-31-2013 at 02:13 PM.

  13. #388
    Senior Member Queena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    I'm pretty sure disinformation is not a word. Just sayin.

    They have made several attempts to explain to the family what Jahi's current situation is. I don't think it's the hospital staff that is the problem here. I think the family is convinced the hospital staff are liars and choose not to listen to them.
    I am very sure disinformation is a word. You really should check before trying to check someone. Here's the link to a dictionary, and a link to Wikipedia. It is very much a word. Thanks for the help!
    http://i.word.com/idictionary/disinformation
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation

  14. #389
    Senior Member Queena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    actually, disinformation is a word, especially in conspiracy theory... i know this because i am into all things illuminati. usually paired with 'agents of', disinformation refers to a selective and strategic campaign to provide misleading information to the public.

    i do think that queena meant misinformation, but disinformation may also apply with the right to life folks using this as an opportunity to push their agenda.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation

    Thank you! I meant it exactly you stated.

  15. #390
    Senior Member *crickets*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    I'm not going to dispute the treatment for DI or that it is uncommon in head injured patients. I'm aware of it as many of the organ donors I have managed suffered TBI's (traumatic brain injury).
    I was an ICU nurse for 14 years. I worked in NTICU (neurotrauma) as well as CTICU (cardiothoracic--open hearts) and ER. So I have cared for critically ill brain-injured, comatose patients as well as patients on multiple vasoactive infusions.

    Vasopressin is used to treat DI and in codes. It is not. used. to. maintain. blood. pressure. in. the. ICU.


    Vasopressin may be a preferred method of therapy in people who are being resuscitated but Jahi is not. She's being maintained, so in this situation, vasopressin is very much appropriate. Adding dopamine will dilate the vascular structure and cause her to be hypotensive, which she probably already is, and why the vasopressin is being used.
    No, that is NOT why it is being used.


    Maintaining a dead body is vastly different from maintaining a live person. Even with credentials. It's a completely different world.
    I am aware of that. I've taken care of donors preop in the ICU and the ER, and I've given anesthesia to donors in the OR during organ harvesting. (I went back to school to become a nurse anesthetist.)


    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    I saw in Dr. Fisher's note she is on vasopressin. The simplest way to explain it, for me, is it aids in kidney and cardiac function and is a key factor in homeostasis. This is why the family thinks her blood pressure is stable. The hypothalamus and pituitary are needed to produce and spew the juice. If she didn't have the drip her blood pressure would drop and her heart would probably stop.
    Sorry but this statement ^ is quite simply 100% wrong.
    Last edited by *crickets*; 12-31-2013 at 10:18 PM.

  16. #391
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    Can't someone just accidentally trip and pull the plug? I would soooo do it. Let the poor girl go.

  17. #392
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...238236061.html
    Though Children's Hospital in Oakland has yet to receive formal documentation from the family of a 13-year-old girl declared brain dead after a tonsillectomy, Jahi McMath's family wrote in court papers that they plan to move her to a center on New York's Long Island that specializes in traumatic brain injuries.

    McMath family attorney Chris Dolan told NBC Bay Area Tuesday he planned to "confirm today" that the Medford, N.Y., center ? founded by a former beauty salon owner ? was still accepting the girl. At the same time the family "is looking to find a place closer to home," Dolan said. Court filings state the alternate facility is in Arizona.

    The developments come one day after a judge extended McMath's life support until Jan. 7 in the latest struggle between the teen's Christian family, who believe Jahi is still alive because her heart is beating, and the hospital. Dolan has filed suits in Alameda County, state appeals and U.S. District Court (PDF) in Oakland, essentially asking the same thing: To keep Jahi alive until she can be transferred to a facility that will accept her.


    Dolan on Tuesday also said the hospital still will not insert a tracheostomy tube and gastric feeding tube into Jahi to help in transferring her to another facility.

    "We got a letter back that said you can't bring anybody in," Dolan said. "So this is a constantly changing game for these folks and it's not a game for Jahi."

    An appellate court late Tuesday denied one of the family's request to compel the hospital to insert a breathing tube into Jahi.

    Sam Singer, hospital spokesman, said Children's Hospital Oakland will gladly take care of the family's wishes, "but they need to come through."


    Jahi McMath's Family Must Arrange Transfer to New Facility

    "The family wants us to hand over the body like it's a piece of furniture," Singer said. "That's not how this works. This is a very tragic situation. There are legal issues. There are medical issues. We need to adhere to the rules and so does the McMath family attorney."

    Singer also added that the hospital has not heard from the New York facility the family said is willing to take Jahi in.

    The founder of New Beginnings Community Center in Medford, Allyson Scerri describes her East Coast center as a "state-of the-art" outpatient facility that helps to rehabilitate people with TBI, neurological disorders, Alzheimer's and dementia.

    In an interview with sister station NBC New York, Scerri said on Tuesday that "New Beginnings is all about life and that's what we believe in. We believe in hope and never giving up."

    In a Dec. 29 letter to Dolan, Scerri wrote that she was "aware of Jahi McMath's dire situation and we are willing to open our outpatient facility" to her in a new facility called The Brendan House, which is "near completion." She wrote that she would provide Jahi with nursing staff, licensed respiratory therapists and a pediatrician. Her letter does not address cost, or who would pay for the services. On a New Beginnings Facebook post, the organization notes that "this child has been defined as a deceased person yet she has all the functional attributes of a living person despite her brain injury."

    Scerri's website biography states she owned a beauty salon and then became a "leader in the health field began years ago when she started a support group for women with infertility problems." The site said she opened the center when her father suffered a TBI in a motorcycle accident. Steve Scerri is listed as the vice president of the company; his past business experience includes founding a cemetery center and three self-storage facilities.

    Nowhere on the site does the center state it addresses people who have been declared "brain dead," which is the same thing as legal death in California and other states.

    Dolan said in court filings (PDF) on Monday that the family hopes to move Jahi to the center and that they plan to send her there by air ambulance on a private jet from Oakland to Long Island for $27,950. (PDF) The family has been fundraising to achieve that financial goal. Dolan's filings also sought to compel Children's Hospital to insert a tracheostomy tube and gastric feeding tube into Jahi ? surgeries the hospital opposes because doctors do not perform operations on people who are legally dead.

    Jahi's story has been making international headlines for the last three weeks, ever since she suffered complications from a tonsillectomy to cure her sleep apnea on Dec. 9. She started coughing up blood about 30 minutes after the surgery, her family said, and suffered a heart attack. She first was declared brain dead on Dec. 12. Two other doctors concurred, including a court-appointed, independent physician.

    That doctor, Stanford School of Medicine's Chief of Pediatric Neurology Paul Graham Fisher, wrote of "electrocerebral silence," along with no eye movement, no vocalization, no gag reflex and no spinal reflex, among other findings, in redacted notes (PDF) obtained by NBC Bay Area.

    "Overall, unfortunate circumstances in 13-year-old with known, irreversible brain injury and non complete absence of cerebral function and complete absence of brainstem function, child meets all criteria for brain death," Fisher wrote.

    However, Dolan cited in court the observations of Dr. Paul Byrne of Ohio, a Catholic doctor who told NBC Bay Area in an exclusive Dec. 27 interview he does not believe that brain death is "true death."

    With "proper nutrition and care" McMath can have meaningful recovery to the degree that she would not meet the "brain death" criteria, Byrne said in court filings.

    Byrne continued that he observed Jahi on Monday, and saw her arms and legs "squirming." In his opinion, he wrote, "this signifies that she is not dead."
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    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
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  18. #393
    Senior Member Queena's Avatar
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    Here's the best description of the sitution ever. I am aware that I say that after ever detailed article, but this one is really good. http://sleepdisorders.about.com/b/20...een-tragic.htm

    The window of opportunity was left open and ignorance flooded in. Belief that she could recover defied medical reason. Even despite multiple physicians attesting to her brain death, her family clings to the hope that she will come back to them. No one with brain death has ever done so. Lawyers took the place of doctors. Decision-making by those with the expertise, the experience, the understanding of medicine was undermined by legal wrangling. Religious figures, dubious ethicists, and a parade of attention-seekers marched into view.

    The death of Jahi McMath is extraordinarily sad. Such a complication occurs rarely, thankfully, but when it does it shatters a family's world. It is not uncaring, unfeeling, or unbelieving for her medical providers to assert the fact that she died. When so determined, their role was to promptly turn off the unnecessary machines. A moment of loss has been prolonged into an enduring tragedy. It was the responsibility of her doctors to put an end to it. By deferring the termination of her life support, her death can be denied and the law can struggle with making decisions that should never have been offered to it. Her doctors failed her, in that moment of greatest need, and we fail her still the longer we perpetuate her inevitable end.

  19. #394
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    "We got a letter back that said you can't bring anybody in," Dolan said. "So this is a constantly changing game for these folks and it's not a game for Jahi."

    Oh really Mr. Dolan? Not a game? Who turned it in to one?

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  20. #395
    Senior Member TupeloHoney's Avatar
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    http://www.lifenews.com/2013/12/31/t...-new-hospital/

    Terri Schiavo's Family Helping Jahi McMath's Family Secure Transfer to New Hospital

    (Dec. 31, 2013) The family of Terri Schiavo, who made international headlines when her husband starved and dehydrated her to death over the course of two weeks, has been quietly helping the family of Jahi McMath find a new hospital or medical facility that will provide her care.

    News that Terri Schiavo's brother Bobby Schindler, also a LifeNews guest blogger, is assisting the McMath family, follows on a judge's decision allowing the McMath family more time to secure transfer for Jahi to a facility. Schindler told LifeNews that, under the direction of the Terri Schiavo Life & Hope Network, he and other patient advocates have been working on behalf of Jahi McMath and her family in relative silence for the sake of the sensitivity of her case.

    It also follows on a prominent pediatrician saying he believes Jahi is not brain dead and can recover with proper care and treatment.

    Schindler said Terri's Network, Life Legal Defense, Angela Clemente & Associates, The Wrongful Death & Injury Institute, New Beginnings and others defending Jahi's life are now stepping forward publicly to represent the many supporters who have been working tirelessly to obtain Jahi's release from Children's Hospital Oakland and transfer her to a safe place.

    "Families and individuals must make themselves aware of what so -- called 'brain death' is and what it is not," said Bobby Schindler, executive director with Terri?s Network. "Additionally, families and individuals must educate themselves regarding their rights as patients, the advance documentation that must be completed prior to any medical procedure as well as how to ensure best any patient?s rights."

    "Jahi McMath has been labeled a 'deceased' person. Yet she retains all the functional attributes of a living person, despite her brain injury. This includes a beating heart, circulation and respiration, the ability to metabolize nutrition and more," he said. "Jahi is a living human being."

    "Together with our team of experts, Terri's Network believes Jahi's case is representative of a very deep problem within the US healthcare system -- particularly those issues surrounding the deaths of patients within the confines of hospital corporations, which have a vested financial interest in discontinuing life," Schindler continued. "Every person needs to understand that medical accidents happen every day. Families and individuals must be more aware of the issue of accountability and patient rights."

    "We continue to work toward Jahi's transfer," he concluded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Not your business View Post
    I will out think the fucking pants off of you and you would thank me for helping you out of them.

  21. #396
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    Geeze, the first sentence of that article saying that Terri was starved and dehydrated. Gah.

    It was in the back of my mind the whole Shiavo case and wouldnt you know there it is.

    Im at the point where my symathy from the family has went to being suportive and having empathy to thinking that they are being duped by this lawyer or they really have no clue what to do.

    Im trying to put myself in their shoes but damn, when the hospital refers to this child as the 'body', it's clear they are like 'hey, dumbasses, she's dead already!'

  22. #397
    Senior Member Queena's Avatar
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    I don't understand why the Schiavo people got involved. Terry Schiavo was in a PVS state, Jahi is dead. Not the same thing.

  23. #398
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queena View Post
    I don't understand why the Schiavo people got involved. Terry Schiavo was in a PVS state, Jahi is dead. Not the same thing.
    It just goes to show how much of a circus they've created out of it. Just watch as more people fill the "clown car". There will be plenty. All for the sake of publicity. Names in lights. CNN mentions. TV time.

    I wonder if this is their idea of honoring their dead daughter the RIGHT way? Who cares.... we'll ride her carcass as far as she'll take us.......
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  24. #399
    Senior Member bermstalker's Avatar
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    Clipped from Puzz's article

    Dolan's filings also sought to compel Children's Hospital to insert a tracheostomy tube and gastric feeding tube into Jahi ? surgeries the hospital opposes because doctors do not perform operations on people who are legally dead.
    That's what I don't understand. How can any court MAKE a doctor preform a surgery if they don't want to? The amount of complete fuck-up is going to happen if the court rules that a doctor must preform the surgery. I do understand dr's take an oath to save lives, but I still don't see how the court can FORCE a dr to do surgery on a dead body.
    If I were a dr, I wouldn't want to do anything to this girl- one reason, she's dead. Another reason, you have to know that anybody involved in the treatment of this girl is going to be sued at the end of this.

    Clipped from Tupelo's article

    "Jahi McMath has been labeled a 'deceased' person. Yet she retains all the functional attributes of a living person, despite her brain injury. This includes a beating heart, circulation and respiration, the ability to metabolize nutrition and more," he said. "Jahi is a living human being."
    Okay! I know the way to solve this whole case. Unplug the machines.

    I want to know who's paying this fucking bill?

  25. #400
    Senior Member bermstalker's Avatar
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    'To watch my daughter just sit there and not have food ... I'm just so happy that she is kind of a thick girl so she still looks good,' Latasha Winkfield said today.

    'I tell her every day, 'Jahi, you losin' weight girl, but you still look good.' I just think it's inhumane to not feed my child, to not refer to her by her name, and stop us in our tracks.'
    Winkfield accused staff at the hospital of insensitive behavior - referring only to her daughter as a cadaver and not even giving her a Christian name.
    'I hate it that they refer to her as just the body or the deceased; that is my child that they're talking about,' Winkfield said to ABC News.
    'They don't even use her name.'

    Children's Hospital Oakland will not permit the procedures to be performed on its premises because Jahi McMath is legally dead in the view of doctors who have examined her, lawyer Douglas Straus wrote in a letter to the girl's family.
    'Performing medical procedures on the body of a deceased human being is simply not something Children's Hospital can do or ask its staff to assist in doing,' he said.


    While Children's Hospital has yet to accept formal documentation, Jahi's attorney's have submitted court papers that reveal they plan to move her to the New Beginnings Community Center in Medford, on New York's Long Island.


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