ugh. i would kill myself if i was in that state! oh wait, no i wouldn't... why the fuck would you want to torture your loved one that way?
ugh. i would kill myself if i was in that state! oh wait, no i wouldn't... why the fuck would you want to torture your loved one that way?
Originally Posted by songbirdsong
Bingo! I've found an article that states that she is in fact dead. Her heart will NOT beat on it's own.
It would be one thing if she could breath on her own, however she can't. She's dead. It's time for the family to begin the healing process.Shanahan, who specializes in pediatric neurology and has performed more than 300 brain-death exams, testified that two tests she performed on Dec. 11 confirmed the diagnosis of brain death. In one of the tests, Shanahan said, doctors briefly removed Jahi from the breathing machine to see if she could breathe on her own but the teen was not able to do so.
Here's the article. http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...ults-at-closed
It still doesn't change my feelings of uncertainty in declaring someone who can breath on their own dead. I hope I never have to be in a situation like this, or one where my loved can breath on their own, but is brain dead.
Ha! I was expecting this in response to the first message above.Y'all know I have something to say about this.
See you in a few hours while I compose a manifesto.
I just feel like doing a huge facepalm!
If someone is brain dead, they will not breathe on their own at all. It's the brain that needs to send the signal to her respiratory system to tell it to breathe. Brain dead means just that. The brain is dead. No activity. No signals firing. No blood flowing. Just a dead piece of flesh sitting in the skull. Nothing in the body will work. With the exception of a twitch here and there from left over electricity in the nerves.
The reason funeral homes sew people's eyes and mouths shut is because they could open from nerve reflexes. They also burp and fart because of gases still inside of the body. They're still dead.
You can take those Fleets and shove them up your ass
I've posted articles that talk about beating heart cadavers. People who are brain dead, but they heart still beats. You can be brain dead, and still have a working heart. One of the links also list a case where someone was brain dead, and lived 20 years breathing on their own. I also posted a link detailing how they came up with the idea of brain death, which was not until the late 1960's. Before then, if someone was brain dead, but still had a working heart they would be in a irreversible coma. Lastly, one of the links also details how beating heart cadavers, can feel pain when during organ procurement. I think a distinction needs to be made between brain dead, partial brain death, and totally brain dead. All of this is moot in Jahi's case. When she was removed from the ventilator, she did not breath on her own. She is totally brain dead. I would understand the family's position more if she was partially brain dead, and/or if she could breath on her own.
So apparently a new nursing home/LTC facility has agreed to take her. How in the hell are they going to transport her to the facility? She can't survive off of the ventilator.
http://www.mercurynews.com/californi...only-remaining
"The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin
My point with those stories is if any of those people breathing or with a beating heart were doing so on their own then they were not brain dead. There is no such thing as "partially brain dead". The proper term for that is "brain damaged". If there were doctors declaring those particular patients brain dead then they were wrong. There obviously was some brain activity in order to allow the respitory system and heart to still function.
You can take those Fleets and shove them up your ass
So what happens if they move her to a LTC place and the 5 pm deadline comes? Is that deadline going to be void?
At some point these people need to be given the real reality and not sugarcoat it anymore. I am only assuming that the doc's are sugarcoating it to be sensitive but after x amount of dr's all say she is dead, what more is there to do?
I wonder if they haunt her dreams? I suspect they'd haunt me.
And let me clarify even further. The respitory system is driven by the brain stem. The rest of the brain could have nothing happening but if the brain stem is still intact it will continue the simple functions. This may be where the confusion is stemming from. For all intents and purposes, the brain will never recover and they will never wake up. But the brain stem is still functioning. They still will never come back.
You can take those Fleets and shove them up your ass
Sorry kids. I found some articles I would like to link, but you have to pay to view them. Poo. I got a little distracted today, too, so it took me a while to respond and it has to be two parts.
You didn?t provide a link with your post, but I knew what article you were quoting.
Brain dead people CANNOT experience pain. They cannot maintain bodily functions, at least for long periods of time, without the assistance of drips. Their organs will eventually start to fail and more drips will be needed, because the hypothalamus and pituitary glands are no longer functioning to send signals to the rest of the endocrine system to spew those lovely hormones our organs eat up.
Anesthesiologists are not neurologists. From American Society of Anesthesiologists:
http://www.asahq.org/For-the-Public-...rofession.aspx
?Anesthesiologists are primarily responsible for the safety and well-being of patients before, during and after surgery?.
These anesthetics provide continuous pain relief and sustain patients? critical life functions as they are affected throughout surgical, obstetrical or other medical procedures.
The role of the anesthesiologist extends beyond the operating room. The anesthesiologist is responsible for the preoperative assessment of the patient, an evaluation process that carefully considers both the patient?s current state of health and the planned surgical procedure that allows anesthesiologists to make judgments about the safest anesthesia plan for each individual patient. The anesthesiologist is also responsible for the well being of the patient postoperatively while the patient emerges from the effects of anesthesia. They are often involved in the management of acute postoperative pain, as well as chronic and cancer pain; in cardiac and respiratory resuscitation; in blood transfusion therapies; and in respiratory therapy.?
Anesthesiologists monitor patients through heart rate, blood pressure, breathing, and level of awareness during sedation. Depending on the numbers depends on how much or how little of the anesthetic is given.
Anesthesiologists do not monitor or administer brain activity or flow studies and they do not declare brain death on patients.
When the ventilator is discontinued on a brain dead person they will cease to breathe. Minimal air may try to escape, but this is not breathing. It?s like having a balloon that is not tied off and the air escaping. Her heart will continue to beat until it becomes oxygen deprived. The heart does not need a brain to beat. As long as it has enough oxygen it will still beat.
"I like my dead people cold, stiff, gray and not breathing," says Dr. Michael A. DeVita of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. "The brain dead are warm, pink and breathing."
I'm not comfortable with the way that doctors came up with brain death.
Although the Harvard criteria were based on zero patients and no experiments were conducted either with humans or animals, they soon became the standard for declaring people dead in several states, and in 1981, the Uniform Determination of Death Act (UDDA) was sanctioned by the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws. The UDDA is based on the Harvard Ad Hoc Committee?s report. That a four-page article defining death should be codified by all 50 states within 13 years is staggering..
If the cold, stiff, gray, and not breathing cardiac dead patients were to be hooked up to the vent, they would then be warm, pink, and breathing. There is no difference in dead between brain dead or cardiac dead patients. They just happened to die in two different manners. Brain dead patients died while connected to mechanical ventilation. Cardiac dead patients died without any mechanical ventilation. They are BOTH the SAME level of dead. DEAD DEAD. DEAD.
The Harvard team did not just pull brain death out of their butts one day to increase organ transplants. Organ transplants were the last thing on their minds at the time. Of course, there were patients and experiments. They started noticing the differences in brain activity between comatose and vegetative states and some patients with absolutely no brain activity and blood flow whatsoever. Europe had already discovered that the patients with no brain activity and blood flow were dead. The U.S. wasn?t ready to accept it just yet.
Before brain death was in acted, patients were diagnosed as comatose or vegetables because there wasn?t another diagnoses for them. Those patients were sent to palliative care or the families decided to pull the plug. It wasn?t until after these observations and brain studies that they realized it makes perfect and logical sense that someone without ANY brain activity and blood flow that they are dead. They just happen to be connected to mechanical ventilation which continues to perfuse the rest of the body, but completely stops at the brain stem.
Without oxygen perfusion and blood flow to the brain it is DEAD. It?s just like being decapitated. Place a rubber band around the tip of your finger. What happens? The circulation is cut off, right? What would happen if you didn?t take that rubber band off? The tip of your finger would eventually fall off because it no longer has blood and oxygen perfusion. This is exactly what happens with people with diabetes who lose toes/feet/legs. It?s what happens with gangrene. The tissue dies because it no longer has the oxygen and blood perfusion that our bodies require in order to live. All of this is the very definition of cardiac death. The heart stops so the body is no longer receiving blood or oxygen to live, so we die. The reason a brain dead body continues to function is because the mechanical ventilator is forcing air into the lungs that provides the oxygenation exchange that our bodies required. The oxygenated blood then travels to the heart, which pumps the oxygenated blood throughout the body from the brain stem down. The blood can no longer reach the brain. If there were ANY brain activity the blood would be able to reach the brain. That?s where we get comatose and vegetative states. That minimal brain activity and blood flow.
Here's what one doctor says
Just as some of our ancestors saw the heart as the locus of the soul, today the medical establishment assumes that the brain is what defines humanity and that a functioning brain is vital to what is called a human being?s personhood. D. Alan Shewmon, a pediatric neurologist at UCLA who was originally pro?brain-death, now dismisses the idea. The most scientific approach one can take to death, he says, is to treat human beings like any other species. People should be judged biologically on whether they are alive or dead, not on some vague notion of personhood. There is no abstract notion of ?squirrelness,? for example, or ?gorillahood,? by which we determine the death of other species.
Dr. D. Alan Shewmon is a friend of Dr. Paul Byrne. They are both right wing pro life devout Catholics who use philosophy and religion instead of scientific facts to treat their patients.
It?s true. If you don?t have a brain you are no longer human. You?re dead here on Earth. Some people choose to believe in a Heaven and Hell and that once your Earthly life is over you enter into an eternal existence. Medical science says that once your Earthly life is over you are now a shell and need to be placed in the fridge until the funeral home can come pick you up.
?People should be judged biologically on whether they are alive or dead, not on some vague notion of personhood.?
This dude is a quack. This is EXACTLY what is being done. Brain death criteria testing is a performed according to biological function.
The letter/email below was sent to Chris Dolan, the McMath family lawyer, at approximately noon today, Dec. 29, by Children’s Hospital Oakland’s attorney Douglas Straus:
Chris,
I learned from your statements to the media that the Southern California sub-acute facility will not accept Jahi McMath’s body because the physicians there do not want to treat a dead body. Children’s Hospital understands that this is a very difficult time for Jahi’s family. Children’s will continue to do what it can do to support the family. In that regard, Children’s position has been consistent:
1. Children’s will be pleased to communicate directly with a physician at any facility that is considering accepting Jahi’s body to make sure Children’s understands the requirements set by that facility for accepting the body and to ensure that the facility understands the current condition of the dead body and what is being done to maintain it under Judge Grillo’s temporary restraining order. Of course, the family’s representatives can observe that communication.
2. Children’s needs to be assured that there is a lawful transportation plan to any facility to which transfer is proposed.
3. If the proposed facility is out-of-state, Children’s needs written assurances from the Coroner that their office will allow the transfer.
To date, there has been no communication from any facility named by you regarding a transfer or requirements for transfer with any of the medical professionals at Children’s. The family has not identified any facility with which Children’s can have this dialogue. Nor have we been provided with a transportation plan or coroner authorization.
As your email and your statements about the facility in the Los Angeles area acknowledge, discussion about performing medical procedures upon a dead body presents unusual and complicated questions. Until there is a definite commitment by a facility to accept Jahi’s body upon specified terms, I don’t think I can tackle those issues. Please let me know if the family is able to identify a facility.”
Doug Straus
I know the rest of her body is getting oxygen/blood, but since her brain is not, is it rotting away? Could they not show her parents an MRI or CAT showing that?
Thanks for all of the info mT!
Clearly this Attorney is full of Shit. I would even go so far as saying there was never an LTC in Los Angeles that agreed to accept the body. And I don't think there is a facility in NY either. He's using smoke and mirrors to create further drama. What a sack of Shit.
You can take those Fleets and shove them up your ass
Sorry for the delay. My computer is as frustrated as I am. It overheated and went into hibernation.
Again, not one single one of the cases Dr. Shewon presents does he present with supporting documentation. His proof is stories provided to him from other people. If he was able to find 150 cases, he surely could find at least one CT scan, one MRI, one EEG, one flow study from one of these 150 cases. The cases I have read did not include ANY brain dead people. They were comatose, in vegetative states, almost brain dead, might be brain dead, probably brain dead; but not one was brain dead. I’ve already discussed this issue a couple of times in this thread so I will not repeat myself again in order to give respect to the other people who have read this thread as a whole. Organ transplantation was never the intention for accepting brain death. It was so brain dead people were not shipped off to nursing homes, sent home, or to the palliative care units of the hospital and for families who refused to pull the plug.Morbid T states.....I've looked at many of the cases being floated around on the internet and I have not found one that proves any of the people were brain dead and woke back up. The stories I have read about are all from the person themselves or the family telling a story. I've seen a lot of "coma" "vegetative state" "basically brain dead" verbage used. Many people believe these terms can be used interchangeably and they can't. They are all different terms of which coma and vegetative states do have brain activity. Brain death shows absolutely no brain activity.
[b]Shewmon compiled 150 documented cases of brain-dead patients whose hearts continued to beat, and whose bodies did not disintegrate, past one week?s time. In one remarkable case, the patient survived 20 years after brain death before succumbing to cardiac arrest. Yet Shewmon presents a litany of life processes that brain-dead patients continue to exhibit:
? Cellular wastes continue to be eliminated, detoxified, and recycled.
? Body temperature is maintained, though at a lower-than-normal temperature and with the help of blankets.
? Wounds heal.
? Infections are fought by the body.
? Infections produce fever.
? Organs and tissues continue to function.
? Brain-dead pregnant women can gestate a fetus.
? Brain-dead children mature sexually and grow proportionately.
So what drove the Harvard Ad Hoc Committee to turn back the calendar and construct a lower standard for death? To a growing number of scientific critics it appears that the committee was fixated on freeing up human organs for transplant. This is why I mentioned organ donors. Although, I don't think she would be eligible.
As far as infections, body temperature, and organ function; yes, they continue with a brain dead person because they are receiving drips and medications to maintain homeostasis. I think I already touched on this earlier in the thread.
Also from the same article.
?I like my dead people cold, stiff, gray, and not breathing,? says DeVita. ?The brain dead are warm, pink, and breathing. They look sick, not dead.?
As someone who has had surgery, I found this tidbit very enlighting. Mark Schlesinger does not like his patients to feel pain during conventional surgery. He is chairman of the department of anesthesiology at Hackensack University Medical Center in New Jersey, and he points out that an anesthesiologist creates brain-dead patients every day: ?We give drugs to make them die. And we bring them back [when the surgery is completed].? A patient under anesthesia is one of the many growing exceptions to the Harvard criteria. He would meet the criteria on the surface, but would be disqualified (ruled still alive) if the examining doctor knew his system was full of drugs. ?The only test you fail under anesthesia,? Schlesinger says, ?is irreversibility.? That is, if an anesthetized patient has had his brain stem put down temporarily. A brain-dead organ donor?s brain stem is also down?but we do not know, given the limitations of the Harvard criteria and their focus entirely on the brain stem, what is going on with the donor?s cerebral cortex or everything beyond the brain stem.
Anesthesiologists do not create brain dead people every day. That statement is disgusting and actually irresponsible of a DOCTOR to even say. They sedate people. Put them in a deep sleep. They don’t stop brain flow or brain activity. They SLOW brain activity, but DO NOT STOP IT.
Organ donors ARE NOT administered ANY type of sedation or pain medication. They are dead so there is no point because they are not in pain and they don’t feel anything.
The cerebral cortex no longer receives blood flow on a brain dead person or an organ donor. That’s why they are dead.
This is a line of bullshit. Testing HAS to be completed in order to declare brain death. SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION AND TESTS, like MRI, CT Scan, EEG, Nuclear Medicine blood flow studies. ALL OF WHICH BECOME PART OF THE PATIENT’S MEDICAL CHART. These don’t even include the brain stem reflex tests that include the apnea test, pain stimuli, dolls reflex, etc., which are done by a physician.Last part, and I know this is long. Sorry.
In another case, a 30-year-old patient with severe head trauma was declared brain dead by two doctors. Preparations were made to excise his organs. The on-call anesthesiologist noted that the beating-heart cadaver was breathing spontaneously, but the declaring physicians said that because he was not going to recover he could be declared dead. The harvest proceeded over the objections of the anesthesiologist, who saw the donor move and react to the scalpel with hypertension that had to be treated. It was in vain since the proposed liver recipient died before he could get the organ, which went untransplanted.
And in a third instance, a young woman suffered seizures several hours after delivering her baby. A neurologist said it was a ?catastrophic neurologic event,? and she was readied for harvest. At that time the anesthesiologist found that she had small yet reactive pupils, weak corneal reflexes, and a weak gag reflex. After treatment, ?the patient coughed, grimaced, and moved all extremities.? She regained consciousness. She suffered significant neurologic deficits but was alert and oriented.
Nowhere does this say the woman is brain dead. It just says she suffered a “catastrophic neurologic event” which does not equate to brain dead.
Beyond pain, there are many surprising findings in a 1971 paper, ?Brain Death: A Clinical and Pathological Study,? published in the Journal of Neurosurgery. The Minnesota team that produced that article studied 25 moribund patients, conducting autopsies on them all and EEGs on some. They also checked for reflexes and found something unusual. Five of the 25 brain-dead people were still sexually responsive. The researchers gently stroked the ?nipple and areola? of all patients and got responses from five, four men and one woman. Then they stroked the skin at the root of the penis on the 18 male patients, and four responded with ?gentle seesaw movements of the penis.? The researchers felt this reaction was ?an incomplete or abortive form of penile erection.? Abortive or not, to the untrained eye it would appear to be a sign of life.
The definition of MORIBUND:
1: being in the state of dying : approaching death
2: being in a state of inactivity or obsolescence
That is all I have to say about that- in my best Forrest Gump voice. As I have already addressed ALIVE people being compared to DEAD people.
Also, we’ve come a long way since 1971, BABY!
Most of the opinions and information that I've stated I obtained from reading this article, I failed to link it yesterday. I didn't get this from anybody, I researched, read on my own, and formed my own opinion. http://discovermagazine.com/2012/may...s#.Ur_16fk_vT4
I have a response specifically for that article as well. There is a lot of misinformation included in it.
Last edited by morbidT; 12-29-2013 at 03:15 PM.
She is ALREADY dead. Her heart will just stop once all the oxygenated blood is gone.
I really can't with the second bold sentence. She isn't a death row inmate up for execution.
Literally. Especially since the family doesn't believe she is dead.
Yes I second this thank you to mT for all the good info.I know the rest of her body is getting oxygen/blood, but since her brain is not, is it rotting away? Could they not show her parents an MRI or CAT showing that?
Thanks for all of the info mT!
I can't tell who is more stupid...that Dr. Byres guy or that Anesthesiologist.
"The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin
You can't kill a dead person.
Dead people do not continue to breathe. That's why brain dead people are left on the vent when they are organ donors. The organs continue to receive oxygen perfusion.
The kid in that article was not brain dead and was never declared brain dead.
He was, technically, dead when his mother found him out in the driveway because he was not breathing and didn't have a pulse. CPR was initiated and he was placed on the ventilator. Brain testing determined he suffered a severe anoxic brain injury. He still had brain activity and blood flow.
I third this. mT is my hero. You're able to explain in intelligent detail what I would say if I had the proper knowledge. I'm completely dumb these last couple of days due to overwork and not enough sleep. But mT knows the WHOLE score and could school everyone in her sleep.
You can take those Fleets and shove them up your ass
Yes, because a brain dead person cannot breathe on their own. A person cannot be declared brain dead if they breathe without the assistance of mechanical ventilation. All SIX doctors who administered the brain death testing concluded she was brain dead because she met all the criteria for brain death.
Their hearts are only continuing to beat because of the ventilator. Yes, you can be brain dead and still have a beating heart, BUT YOU MUST have oxygen supplying that heart and the only way oxygen is supplying that heart is through the ventilator.
The person who was "brain dead" and lived 20 years was not brain dead. He showed minimal brain activity and had blood flow to the brain. Brain dead people cannot feel pain during an organ procurement. There may be fluctuations in blood pressure because of blood loss. This is not uncommon. When that happens fluids are given to provide more volume to maintain a blood pressure. It is not a pain reflex. Anesthesiologists DO NOT provide sedation or pain medication during organ procurement. That would be morally and ethically wrong because the person is dead. There is no reason to give them any type of medication like that.
The terms brain death and totally brain dead mean the same thing. Partial brain death would be brain damaged. These terms have caused many a problem in the medical field and is what a lot of people keep digging up. Prior to brain death testing everyone was in a coma or a vegetable. The medical field came up with partial brain death and whole brain death which in retrospect was a mistake because people are still clinging to that out dated terminology. The terms partial brain death and whole brain death are no longer used (well, I shouldn't say that because there is probably an old coot who refuses to advance with the times).
Just as "life support" is not supposed to be used any longer. The correct terminology is mechanical ventilation. As with organ harvesting. The correct terminology is organ procurement. But like I said, there is always an old coot using the old terminology that feeds into the uncertainties.
If jahi were "partially brain dead" by the 1960's definition she would be brain damaged.
I don't know about her but in all the autopsies and organ donors I have had I have not dreamed about any of them.
Sorry for all the back to backs. I keep missing posts because I'm usually responding while someone else is posting.
I knew this stupid fucker was a lying sack of shit. I'm finally glad to see the hospital speak up!
I suspect the brain is showing signs of atrophy after several weeks of no blood flow.I know the rest of her body is getting oxygen/blood, but since her brain is not, is it rotting away? Could they not show her parents an MRI or CAT showing that?
Thanks for all of the info mT!
I also suspect they have shown the parents ALL of the testing that has been completed; inlcuding CTs, MRIs, EEGs, Nuc Med studies, and they may even have allowed the family to watch the brain stem reflex tests which include the apnea test.
So if the second LTC facility backed out, what is the family going to do now?
"The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin
They claim to have a 3rd LTC in NY but Animosity posted an email from the Hospital to The Slimy Lawyer that hints that all of the LTCs are a lie. Except for the original one who backed out because they spoke to the Hospital and discovered the TRUE condition of Jahi.
Basically: DOLAN = LYING SACK OF SHIT
You can take those Fleets and shove them up your ass
I suspect nothing. I think that the lawyers wanted to drum up a bunch of publicity and hoopla at the family's expense, but now that it has played out I think that tomorrow the hospital will disconnect the ventilator. This was just a big political card for these lawyers/political doctors, and the family's emotions were just political capital for these right wing crazies.
I am in agreement that she is dead. However, there have been cases where doctors have made mistakes in declaring someone brain dead, and then they recover. If she needs a vent in order to breath, and can not breath on her own, and has failed all of the test, she's dead. I guess the only way to prove that is for them to see that she can't breath on her own.
Thanks MorbidT for the info! I don't know what to think about this. I find it crazy that some people have almost been declared brain dead, and make a full or even partial recovery. I know it is rare, but the fact that it happens is worrisome to me.
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