Jodi Ann Arias shot and stabbed her ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander to death (Part II)

[Rockabillychick]

Hey all! So is there a chance of the jury getting the case handed over on Friday (say closing arguments are done EOD Thursday or early Friday)? Or do you think the judge will wait until Monday regardless?

Just hoping for Friday as I think deliberations will be pretty quick and I'll be traveling all next week so it'll be hard to keep track/watch the verdict live. And I realllly want to see it live!

And I know it sounds a little selfish but I had been hoping deliberations wouldn't be next week!

TA's family posted a letter on FB asking supporters to fast and pray for Justice on Sunday May 5th. (Metis posted it here as well). I think that even if the closing arguments are completed on Friday the Judge will recess and let deliberations begin Monday morning.

I don't think you sound selfish. You invested your time watching the trial and even drove to AZ to watch it. I understand that you want to be able to see the verdict.

[Brillig]

Metis, I always appreciate your insights from a psych professional's perspective. I'll be very interested to hear your thoughts on his testimony next week.

I misread this the first time through and thought you called Metis a "psycho professional". My first thought was... "wow, harsh".

Good god y'all.

That gave me a James Brown moment.

Well, I'm confused...

I went into this week firmly convinced a murder 1 conviction was in the bag; that the ME's testimony would seal the deal with a BOOM. Then I heard his testimony, full of "I believe"s and "I think"s and now I'm back to not so sure. Of all the questions he was asked about the gunshot being first and whether Travis would have been capable of purposeful actions after the shot, and even whether the bullet actually went through the brain, the "I think/believe so" and "probably so" (or not) outnumbered the straight-up "yes" or "no" answers by 2 to 1.



So I'm left undecided and uneasy when I was so sure...does "I think", "I believe" and "probably" equal "beyond a reasonable doubt"? Does "I'm confused" equal "beyond a reasonable doubt"? The waters seem muddy right now.

He is a scientist. He does not want to say "absolutely not" or "absolutely yes" when there is a teeny tiny chance that it would be possible. Teeny. Teeny tiny. Out of tens of thousands of cases, or maybe hundreds of thousands, there are a handful with a different outcome. So it is not absolutely impossible Travis could have had intentional movement after the gunshot.

BUT, it is so very, very unlikely, that any doubt about it would not be a reasonable doubt. REASONABLE. The doubt has to be reasonable.

The standard is not beyond any possible doubt. The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. That standard has totally been met by the prosecution.

I completely agree with this! It's all smoke and mirror BS! If she shows remorse, it negates the claim of self defense. If she feels shame, it humanizes her! Although IMO, neither are present in JA's case.

Actually, I don't think showing remorse would negate self defense. If I had to kill someone in self defense, I would be devastated. Would I think I did the correct thing and that I had a right to defend myself? Of course. But that does not mean I would not be very remorseful. It would be bad enough if the person was a stranger, but if they were someone I loved?? Wow, I can't even imagine how devastated and remorseful I would be.

I think Jodi not showing remorse is because she just doesn't have any.

That's the thing though, it IS possible. Rare, yes, but entirely possible. That pic coconut posted of an ink diagram showing a skull with a stick through it was a REAL injury. Phineas Gage had a steel rod blasted through his left frontal lobe while working on the railroad in 1848...

....& you can also search Rachel's Story : Rachel Barezinsky was shot with a .22 hollowpoint...

Correct, it is not impossible. But they are absolute exceptions to the rule. The fact that freak occurrences happen on rare occasion does not equal reasonable doubt for Jodi.

[Sweet Pea]

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/christlyn-nurmi/60/b93/a2b

I see Andy Dick in a wig.

The school she teaches at is one of the top 50 in the nation.

[Metis212]

OK fellow MDSers....I was just watching one of those Mystery Detective shows on HLN and I saw a very disturbing thing. The case was about the killing of Melvin Snyder (looong time ago)....anyway the investigator and ME were talking about the gun used. During the investigation a single bullet casing was found but there was NO BLOOD to be found. (man was missing).....so the investigator made an unusual, interesting comment. If the bullet doesn't exit, it won't bleed. I took note and replayed. Have any of the sleuths here ever heard this concept????? I was pretty shocked to hear that!

The ME said that there would be bleeding at the wound. I've seen bullet wounds in my career and they do not bleed much. it was always a surprise to me. The blood in the bathroom, hall and bedroom carpet are all from the knife wounds.

[sheesh]

There is no way she shot Travis first

Much of this has been discussed ad nauseam but I thought I'd post it for anyone still doubts whether she stabbed or shot him first.

I'm firmly in the stabbed him first camp

As am I. She wanted to watch him suffer as she slashed and stabbed him over and over again.

[faq_q]

from hornes original testimony where he explained in a man travis' age the brain is flush against the skull not like the drawings
Dr. Horn: It had to have passed through the brain
Q: You don't have any medical evidence of that do you?
Dr. Horn: I do, the skull is perforated where the brain is, so it had to have passed through the brain.
Q: Well
Dr. Horn: The brain is there
Q: But you have no idea, you have no medical evidence of how far or what part of the brain exactly it would of hit, right?
Dr. Horn: It would have passed through the right frontal lobe
Q: Uh um
Dr. Horn: I just don't have any evidence of hemorrhage now because of decomposition. But it had to have passed through the brain because the part of the skull that was injured. The brain in a young person especially, is flush against that structure
Q: Um uh
Dr. Horn: The brain occupies the entire skull, so to have a hole in the skull here and exit in here, it has to pass through the brain.
Q: Well the exits, there's no exit.
Dr. Horn: The exit from the skull cavity into the face.
Q: uh ha.. so but but what you're saying though, you have no idea how where that bullet might have hit, it could have just grazed the tip of the brain, right?
Dr. Horn: No, it had to have passed through the right frontal lobe of the brain. Based on where these holes in the skull are

Then yesterday, Thursday, he said plenty of maybe's and possibly.....he did not say anything yes or no during cross yesterday or very little anyways. I think it leaves a door open IMO. Dr Horne on initial direct with JW was sure of himself, in fact i watched it again today, it was day 3 of the trial. Yesterday, he didn't give a definitive yes or no to many questions Nurmi had. That is all I am saying. I still think Juan should have gone for the jugular and asked more about trajectory.

[Harlette]

Then yesterday, Thursday, he said plenty of maybe's and possibly.....he did not say anything yes or no during cross yesterday or very little anyways. I think it leaves a door open IMO. Dr Horne on initial direct with JW was sure of himself, in fact i watched it again today, it was day 3 of the trial. Yesterday, he didn't give a definitive yes or no to many questions Nurmi had. That is all I am saying. I still think Juan should have gone for the jugular and asked more about trajectory.

i did wish he would say something about how far away the shot was - jodi said she shot him w/ the gun at very close range - and in the medical examiners report there was no stippling - i am thinking maybe he sees the jury is betting weary and didn't want to shove to much more info at them?

[blighted star]

The reason the detective couldn't have someone Jodi's weiegt and size step on the shelve was Numri filed with the court to have any testing be disqualified.
here is a link to the court that shows all that.

http://media2.abc15.com/html/pdf/ariasmotion1.pdf

Aha! Well now I know she wasn't even doing one of her "partial" truths. I thought she might've extrapolated a story of something she'd done during her housekeeping duties. If they fought a demonstration, then Jodi has never tried to use that shelf as a step. If she had, they'd want the demo in because it IS possible.

My mother had much flimsier looking IKEA shelves installed in my bedroom when I was a teenager & I was given a smack over the head at least once a week for doing exactly what Jodi claimed to have done. I definitely had to do it in a very particular way for it to work, kind of tippy- toe up on the ball of my foot & reach up, grab, leap back off, all in one kind of VERY fast fluid motion. Sometimes it took 2 or 3 tries to do it without tipping the shelf because I had to jump back off if I could feel it pivoting to the point of no return. & I was ALWAYS busted because my mum would hear the shelf crash back down, because it did lift up even when I got it right.

I'd already tried to explain what I used to do to a couple of posters here, & I was about to post about it when I saw Biggie's post. It described my experience perfectly, but I knew exactly what would happen if I agreed with the only red poster in this thread. & If it's happened to me in real life, then I bet there's others reading or lurking in this thread who know I'm not making this up - they're probably worried about outing themselves too. Now that I hear the defense didn't want this in though? It makes my experience of her story being possible into more proof she's lying, rather than proof she told the truth. Unless of course, Once Upon A Time, the defense team & her family believed her there was nothing bad about the found Helio ph, got bit BAD on that lie & have now decided to err on the side of caution with every one of her statements?

& I know guys, different shelves, different person, different stuff on shelves, no naked wet guy chasing me while I prance around in wet socks etc, etc. I know. But in some circs it IS possible & it would've been better to do nothing than do the demonstration they did, because now it's drawn attention to it & like Sheesh(?) said it's a distraction.

[Jillee]

Interesting- I just got word from a friend who's reluctantly talking to a close friend of Patti (Patti is Jodi's friend from Yreka who calls into shows. She always sounds a bit drunk) that when the "25 auto gun found near Hoover Dam by road crew" news was abuzz on the internet last week, this supposedly sent Jodi into a bit of a panic. Donavan went into overdrive making calls to everyone, etc.

Even tho that topix "Road crew" post is over a month old (and most likely a hoax) I find it kind of interesting that Jodi would worry about someone finding the gun near the Hoover Dam...
That's all I have for now. Thought I'd share tho.

[faq_q]

TA's family posted a letter on FB asking supporters to fast and pray for Justice on Sunday May 5th. (Metis posted it here as well). I think that even if the closing arguments are completed on Friday the Judge will recess and let deliberations begin Monday morning.

I don't think you sound selfish. You invested your time watching the trial and even drove to AZ to watch it. I understand that you want to be able to see the verdict.

Sorry for chiming in, I have followed this case for 5 years myself. I now might actually have a chance to be there for the verdict and I am stoked! missmandy9, try to come out again! I am trying to get Ian, Poppycock and myself there for the verdict. It would be awesome to have more MDS people there.

The ME said that there would be bleeding at the wound. I've seen bullet wounds in my career and they do not bleed much. it was always a surprise to me. The blood in the bathroom, hall and bedroom carpet are all from the knife wounds.

Agreed, a gunshot is a small wound going in and unless it exits, there would be very little blood.

[ShellJett]

JM has many years of experience in the courtroom. Simply because he is working alone does not mean he doesn't have a feel for the jury. I trust that he has had his finger on the pulse of the jury, and because he is not as obvious as the DT, we just don't see it. I think that despite his frustration with getting straight answers out of witnesses, he is a pro and kept his Rebuttal very short and straightforward. I have faith that he will present an excellent closing and there is no need to start getting nervous now. He has been limited as to what he can ask and has all of the information in his head. He knows that jurisdiction and this case inside and out, so I will sleep well in my big comfy bed while Stabby sleeps on a bunk bed cot.

[zeebee]

Put me in the "stabbed him first" camp as well (is this summer camp? I LOVE summer camp!).

[Jillee]

True Star.

Could Travis have had another 90 - 120 seconds of reasonably meaningful activity after being shot in the brain the way he was? YES HE COULD HAVE.

Yes, but... what are the odds? How many people have lived (off a ventilator) from a gunshot wound through the frontal lobe? How many have collapsed within seconds? How many have been able to make purposeful movements afterwards for any amount of time. Calculate the odds and then you'll know whether it's reasonable. 1 in 20,000? 1 in 500,000? 1 in a million?

[coconut]

Correct, it is not impossible. But they are absolute exceptions to the rule. The fact that freak occurrences happen on rare occasion does not equal reasonable doubt for Jodi.

Unfortunately for the prosecution, in this case, at least regarding the gunshot, it is very reasonable doubt. It is extremely reasonable to expect that if the gunshot was first, it did not kill Travis, and he could have continued to take actions to preserve his life over the next 90-120 seconds, including attacking Jodi.

It sounds crazy, right? OMG he got shot in the brain! But the frontal lobe is a great place to get shot. It does not control breathing or essential survival functions. And he was shot with a very small, weak weapon. His skull and facial bones stopped the bullet. Yes the outer part of his frontal lobe was injured. But it is not rare or impossible to continue life functions after being shot in the head.

And this is exactly why the Medical Examiner see-sawed under questioning. Martinez wants him to say it's 100% impossible. But it is extremely possible and he knows it, so he must admit it under oath. Not rare. Not a freak ocurrence. Documented by medical science and historical example, battlefield trauma, etc.

I think Martinez and the ME FUBAR'd the slam dunk part of their case. He changed his testimony and his mind, either him or Flores lied about who told who what when. They had great evidence and they shit the bed on this one. They could and should have shut the door on her. Mickey Mouse operation, really.

[Brillig]

Put me in the "stabbed him first" camp as well (is this summer camp? I LOVE summer camp!).

Yes, just like summer camp!

The "stabbed him firsts" will all be in the same cabin. In the middle of the night, we will sneak over to the camp of the "shot him firsts" and put saran wrap over their toilet bowls. It'll be a blast!

[Jillee]

Coconut. What historical data besides the stories above?? I need to know the odds.

Phineas Gage's survival was not expected -as most people who had massive brain injuries did not live through it. I think the odds of Travis having purposeful movement after being shot in the frontal lobe are pretty slim. If the odds were 50/50, the ME would have known this. I haven't heard one Medical examiner say that Travis most likely was able to walk around after such a wound. If the defense could have found one that would say that, I would think that they would have propped the guy up on the witness stand and had him say it. 50/50 Coconut?! Naw! No way. Like Phineas, it would have been a miracle. You can't allow for miracles when deciding reasonable doubt.

[coconut]

Yes, but... what are the odds? How many people have lived (off a ventilator) from a gunshot wound through the frontal lobe? How many have collapsed within seconds? How many have been able to make purposeful movements afterwards for any amount of time. Calculate the odds and then you'll know whether it's reasonable. 1 in 20,000? 1 in 500,000? 1 in a million?

Nobody knows, but I consider it much more likely than the odds you are quoting. 50/50.

I'm talking about walking, crawling, screaming, waving his arms, percieving light, feeling pain, survival instinct stuff. Moving toward sound and light with arms flailing... knowing that you are fucked and trying desperately to act to preserve your life... for less than two minutes... more like one minute...

And here's a guy who flat out survived. No ventilator! 1848! Just read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

[PopRocks]

I think some of you are dissecting the ME's testimony a little too much

What i heard from him didnt leave any doubts in my mind. He was saying words like "probably" because its true, anything can happen.

[PopRocks]

Put me in the "stabbed him first" camp as well (is this summer camp? I LOVE summer camp!).

totally

There is a reason why jodi "doesnt remember" stabbing him

Its because the stab wounds are what killed him. Travis was already practically dead by the time she shot him

[Brillig]

Unfortunately for the prosecution, in this case, at least regarding the gunshot, it is very reasonable doubt. It is extremely reasonable to expect that if the gunshot was first, it did not kill Travis, and he could have continued to take actions to preserve his life over the next 90-120 seconds, including attacking Jodi.

It sounds crazy, right? OMG he got shot in the brain! But the frontal lobe is a great place to get shot. It does not control breathing or essential survival functions. And he was shot with a very small, weak weapon. His skull and facial bones stopped the bullet. Yes the outer part of his frontal lobe was injured. But it is not rare or impossible to continue life functions after being shot in the head.

And this is exactly why the Medical Examiner see-sawed under questioning. Martinez wants him to say it's 100% impossible. But it is extremely possible and he knows it, so he must admit it under oath. Not rare. Not a freak ocurrence. Documented by medical science and historical example, battlefield trauma, etc.

I think Martinez and the ME FUBAR'd the slam dunk part of their case. He changed his testimony and his mind, either him or Flores lied about who told who what when. They had great evidence and they shit the bed on this one. They could and should have shut the door on her. Mickey Mouse operation, really.

We are going to have to agree to disagree about this one, Big Daddy Yum Yum, no matter how much I adore you.

There is no reasonable doubt on the gunshot. He did not chase her around threatening her life while screaming "kill you bitch" after he was shot. Period.

[Brillig]

I'm talking about walking, crawling, screaming, waving his arms, percieving light, feeling pain, survival instinct stuff. Moving toward sound and light with arms flailing... knowing that you are fucked and trying desperately to act to preserve your life[/B]... for less than two minutes... more like one minute...

But NOT screaming "kill you bitch" in a murderous rage and chasing after Jodi trying to kill her. Which is her story.

[coconut]

I've gotten sucked into the same hole in the matrix that The Prosecution has! Fucking Jodi...

Jodi's story can not be disproven on the basis of how much the gunshot would have incapacitated Travis if it happened first. But Jodi's scenario can be disproven other ways from the forensic evidence. Why not focus on those Juan??? Probably because they did a very average job at the crime scene and did not realize how important the wound sequence would become until Jodi got creative.

The Prosecution should have used other methods, based on the actual evidence, to demonstrate their sequence of events was the only possible scenario. I think a spatial model of where the shooter would have been in relation to the target given the lack of contact injury, bullet trajectory, etc would have been a massive help.

[*crickets*]

He is a scientist. He does not want to say "absolutely not" or "absolutely yes" when there is a teeny tiny chance that it would be possible. Teeny. Teeny tiny. Out of tens of thousands of cases, or maybe hundreds of thousands, there are a handful with a different outcome. So it is not absolutely impossible Travis could have had intentional movement after the gunshot.

BUT, it is so very, very unlikely, that any doubt about it would not be a reasonable doubt. REASONABLE. The doubt has to be reasonable.

The standard is not beyond any possible doubt. The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. That standard has totally been met by the prosecution.

Has it?

In the jury instructions that trial courts must give in every criminal case in AZ, proof beyond a reasonable doubt is not proof that overcomes every doubt, as you say, but it goes on to say 'the proof must leave you firmly convinced of the defendant's guilt' (or in the case of justifiable homicide on the grounds of self-defense, 'firmly convinced' the defendant did NOT act with justification).

Dr. Horne's testimony did not leave me 'firmly convinced'...if anything, he raised more questions and confusion than existed after his initial testimony. JMO.

[blighted star]

reasonable doubt[/B]. REASONABLE. The doubt has to be reasonable.

Correct, it is not impossible. But they are absolute exceptions to the rule. The fact that freak occurrences happen on rare occasion does not equal reasonable doubt for Jodi.

Agreed. & if LWOP was all this jury was considering, I don't think their knowledge of instances such as these would be too big a deal. But this is a DP case. I know they've taken an oath re this & I'm not suggesting any of these jurors would deliberately go outside the scope of what's allowable. But with so many overturned DP cases getting publicity through the Innocence Project (?) etc, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that someone might unconsciously look for a higher standard when a defendants life or death is in their hands.

Also, some of my posts are more about multiple posts stating something is NEVER possible, under ANY circumstances EVER. This thread will be around long after the trial's over. So sometimes it's more about having a balance of views available for future readers - because there will be future readers, long after many of this thread's posters have drifted away. (but I like it when someone tells me I'm wrong, it makes me THINK & for that I will always say thankyou before I say fuckyou )

[Jillee]

I've gotten sucked into the same hole in the matrix that The Prosecution has! Fucking Jodi...

Jodi's story can not be disproven on the basis of how much the gunshot would have incapacitated Travis if it happened first. But Jodi's scenario can be disproven other ways from the forensic evidence. Why not focus on those Juan??? Probably because they did a very average job at the crime scene and did not realize how important the wound sequence would become until Jodi got creative.

The Prosecution should have used other methods, based on the actual evidence, to demonstrate their sequence of events was the only possible scenario. I think a spatial model of where the shooter would have been in relation to the target given the lack of contact injury, bullet trajectory, etc would have been a massive help.

Jodi's whole story will be disproven as the jury knows she lied to them several times. I don't think the sequence of events will even matter after that. They can't trust anything she says and her lawyers and experts are all relying on her lies too. However, I do agree with Brillig! You are quite the Big Daddy Yum Yum!