Jodi Ann Arias shot and stabbed her ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander to death (Part II)

[wasthinking]

The only way she gets second degree is if the prosecution fails to prove premeditation beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the definition of first degree murder. Premeditation. That is why some of us get frustrated with Martinez when he goes ballistic over some stupid trivial piece of bullshit like ALV and her Snow White theory...that crap is NOT IMPORTANT and only serves to distract and muddy the waters even more than they already are.

There are two first degree, premed and felony


If the court gives both the first-degree premeditated murder instruction and first-degree felony-murder instruction, the court should include the following in the instruction:
You must unanimously agree that the State has proven "first-degree murder" beyond a reasonable doubt before you may find the defendant guilty of "first-degree murder." However, all of you do not have to agree on whether it was "premeditated murder" or "felony murder."

The court also should include the following in the verdict form:
[Complete this portion of the verdict form only if you find the defendant "guilty" of "first-degree murder."]

Please indicate the number of jurors who found beyond a reasonable doubt that the offense of "first-degree murder" was committed as follows:
_____ Premeditated murder
_____ Felony murder
_____ Both premeditated murder and felony murder

COMMENT: First-degree felony murder has no lesser-included offenses. State v. Bocharski, 200 Ariz. 50, 22 P.3d 43 (2001).

[AgathaAppleswine]

Many of Travis's close friends who also knew Jodi.... told him to get away from her in more ways than one. I know you follow the trial. This has been proven

No it hasn't. It's been spoken of, and brought up by the defense. The prosecutor is trying to steer clear of the stalker issue, since it's not able to be proven. It's too prejudicial to bring up, and could become an issue on appeals if he pursues it. So he doesn't.

But he isn't Travis is he? He's alive. Yes, he took action against his stalker didn't he?

Travis was not just being stalked, but I believe he was being abused. This changes things, and makes the situation more complex. To add to that, Travis was a man being stalked and/or abused by a woman, which meant fewer resources, and a less likely chance of being taken seriously.

He did not try to cut her out of his life. He chose to have a secretive sexual relationship with her right up to the day of his death.

Says Jodi Arias, his abuser and stalker. You say "chose" like he had a perfectly normal relationship with her. You are not taking into consideration how manipulated in that relationship he might have been. He may have told her "No, I don't want sex", and then been convinced to give it to her anyway. He may have been guilted into making a sex tape (and a bad one at that) to make her happy, or to placate her. He may have been too frightened of her to say "no", but didn't tell anyone because he didn't think he should be afraid of her.

I can give you a dozen more scenarios where Travis would not be the totally willing participant you want him to be. There are many ways to coerce and manipulate people, and Travis was vulnerable. He grew up in a toxic home, he was struggling with his faith and his sex drive, he was struggling to find his identity. Abusers and stalkers can key into that vulnerability, and they quickly learn what it takes to manipulate their victims.

Haven't you ever wondered why Travis had so many injuries, and Jodi really had none? Abuse victims, even when they are being physically assaulted, often times don't fight back as hard as they should or can, because they don't want to inflict damage on their abusers.

Have you ever been stalked? If not, then you have no idea what you are talking about. Yes, I did do the right thing....I disengaged as did the author of the article. Who is still alive and who isn't?

Yes, I have been stalked. My abusive ex who raped me? Yeah, that ended in a stalking scenario. Every now and then he still shows up, or calls, or sends an email.

Guess what? I never called the police. I never moved. I still engaged with him for many years, and there were times when I thought that he was going to cross the line.

And lookie here! I'm alive and arguing with you.

The woman I know who was stalked? She did all the right things. Called police. Took notes on things. Used the buddy system when she went to work, didn't go anywhere alone, etc. She got a restraining order and changed her phone number. He showed up at her house with a knife, kidnapped her, raped her, and then locked her in the trunk and tried to set the car on fire.

So again, I say bullshit that doing things right will make a stalker less dangerous. It doesn't work that way, because there are different levels of crazy, and police can't do jack until the stalker actually causes you harm.

You are saying you know "shit about Jodi and Travis.." etc. Why can't I ? My evidence is NOT based on Jodi's testimony. It is based on Travis's own words and his close friends. Some of who were witnesses for the prosecution. Don't they?

No, I'm not saying I know about Travis and Jodi. I am making suppositions that are supported by factors such as known reactions of abuse and stalking victims. I discount most of what Jodi says simply because she lies about everything, and has twisted it all up to avoid taking responsibility for her crime. YOU keep saying that it is a FACT that Travis was blase about Jodi. You are saying that it is FACT that he did nothing. You are saying that it is FACT that he wasn't worried. You are saying that it is FACT that Travis didn't do the right things.

You don't know that. It sounds like he was attempting to cut her out of his life. We don't know how she got into his house. We don't know how she got him naked. YOU claim that you KNOW ABSOLUTELY that Travis was just addicted by the sex, and therefore blind to any dangers. There is no evidence to support that. There is plenty of fact, however, to support the theory that Travis was manipulated and abused by Jodi, and therefore, his reactions to her on June 4th are different than someone who is not an abuse victim.

Do you understand this? There is a difference between fact and opinion. What you have stated is an opinion, but you are trying to make it a fact. You have nothing to support your opinion, except for Jodi's testimony and your encounter with a stalker. Again, this does give you some insight, but it doesn't mean that your insight disproves mountains of data that explain how victims of abuse respond to their abusers.

Yes we do know, the sexual and shower pictures ( evidence) found in the camera prove it. They were having a secretive relationship. Look at the timeline of their relationship? Why would he make up with his known stalker?

Yes, they had a secret relationship. Yes, they had nekkid pictures. Now, if you take Jodi's first version of events seriously, she says that she has to convince Travis to have his picture taken in the shower. Based on what I know of Jodi, she probably begged, nagged, and annoyed him until he gave into whatever her demands were. So I'm assuming the sex and the photos were his way of appeasing her.

Of course he was manipulated. How do you think she got him into that shower after he consented to sex with her? He chose to let her into his home. You can't complain to your friends you have a stalker and then invite that stalker into your home and consent to have sex with them? For every action there is a reaction.

You don't know that he consented in the sense that he wanted the sex. He may have been trying to appease her. He may have been manipulated into letting her into his home. You assume too much with no evidence to support this.

You are right. I don't know 100 percent. Never said I did. I only know what the proven evidence of the case from all parties tells me and I must adhere to that.

No, what you do is conveniently forget certain things, ignore others, and twist the details to suit your own belief. You are too determined to make sure that Travis take some responsibility for his death, and I find that insulting.

Let me ask you a question? Do you really think JA is the first of her kind and even so does it matter? What matters are the facts of the case. No victim judging here. Nothing I have written says that I blame Travis for his own murder. What I blame Travis for...is not taking care of himself properly. You and everyone on this thread can argue with me... but what you cannot deny is that Travis knew he was being stalked, knew this woman was not the one for him, knew she was sneaking into his home, breaking into his personal accounts, slashing his other girlfriends tires, etc, etc. This has been proven....in court. Where do you think I am getting this info from? I am only trying to dissect the known facts of the case. Jodi is highly intelligent, yes. Travis was highly intelligent, yes.

Nothing of Jodi's stalking has been proven in court. Read the top of this post if you need a refresher on that. The bolded part points to your BS and how you contradict yourself. Do you understand that "his choices led him to this and if he'd done it differently, he'd still be alive" is blame?

The definition of blame means to "hold responsible, censure, find fault with". Which is exactly what you have done. You fault Travis on his choices, you assume that he was a totally consenting person who should have seen the danger and that he did nothing to prevent said danger. That is fault, ergo that is blame.

But he still let this "sociopath, evil person" ( his words) into his house on June 4, 2008 and stripped naked for her, didn't he? A choice is made between real options and followed by the corresponding action.

Maybe she apologized to him. As an abuse victim, or simply because he's a forgiving guy, Travis let her into his house. Perhaps it was ill-advised, but this does not make him in any way responsible for his death. If he hadn't allowed her into his home, she would have broken in. Perhaps he shouldn't have had sex with her? Well, maybe she demanded it, and threatened him with that phone sex tape. In exchange for her silence, he screwed her. That doesn't mean he consented to sex. Maybe she suggested break-up sex, and he agreed, because he really did care for her, and he enjoyed spending time with her when she wasn't being weird.

I don't know. You don't know either. You cannot claim he consented when there is nothing that tells us whether or not he did.

Whew. Long post is long.

Violet, I recommend that you do a little more research on male victims of abuse before you continue the discussion. This case is not about sex or stalking (although both those things are a big part of the discussion).

[*crickets*]

Remember she is also charged with Felony Murder which is also First Degree Murder

That's true...that charge is murder committed during a felony, right? That's always seemed like kind of a long shot to me...I guess the felony would have to be the theft of Travis's gun (the one that never existed)? The other way I heard they could make it Felony Murder is that once Jodi attacked Travis she was no longer in his house with his approval and therefore the murder was committed during a burglary, so the felony part would be the burglary? or some far-fetched thing like that. Just doesn't seem very promising to me...

[Wishmich]

There are two first degree, premed and felony


If the court gives both the first-degree premeditated murder instruction and first-degree felony-murder instruction, the court should include the following in the instruction:
You must unanimously agree that the State has proven "first-degree murder" beyond a reasonable doubt before you may find the defendant guilty of "first-degree murder." However, all of you do not have to agree on whether it was "premeditated murder" or "felony murder."

The court also should include the following in the verdict form:
[Complete this portion of the verdict form only if you find the defendant "guilty" of "first-degree murder."]

Please indicate the number of jurors who found beyond a reasonable doubt that the offense of "first-degree murder" was committed as follows:
_____ Premeditated murder
_____ Felony murder
_____ Both premeditated murder and felony murder

COMMENT: First-degree felony murder has no lesser-included offenses. State v. Bocharski, 200 Ariz. 50, 22 P.3d 43 (2001).

I really can't conceive how any reasonable person can come to any conclusion other than premeditated murder. The Menendez brothers tried the abuse excuse and it didn't work for them. That case had so much less evidence than this one. They even had each other to back up the so-called abuse. My dream at the conclusion of this thing is about a two hour deliberation and it's 1st degree premed. If the deliberations go on for days and days, I'm going to be agitated.

[Tia111]

Good point. One must take Jodi's word for the actual action of sexual intercourse even though they were both naked and taking pornographic pictures of each other. The camera evidence proves this. Are there any more pictures from this day not released to the public? No one knows for sure. Was there a sex video on that day? They liked taping each other too. Did they really truly have sexual intercourse THAT day? Well...according to Jodi they did. According to the pictures from that day, if they didn't I'd be truly amazed. Especially knowing Travis loved to have sex with her and visa-versa The point is .... he let her into his home. He chose to get naked with her. Her goal was to get his clothes off and get him into that shower......and that is exactly what she did and he allowed it....knowing full well that this woman was bad, bad news.

STOP THE TRIAL... Call Juan, according to the above drivel, Travis committed suicide. You are freaking brilliant. Well almost as brilliant as AL.

[dizzyp]

I really can't conceive how any reasonable person can come to any conclusion other than premeditated murder. The Menendez brothers tried the abuse excuse and it didn't work for them. That case had so much less evidence than this one. They even had each other to back up the so-called abuse. My dream at the conclusion of this thing is about a two hour deliberation and it's 1st degree premed. If the deliberations go on for days and days, I'm going to be agitated.

I'm expecting a "quick" (within one day of deliberations) guilty verdict-- M1--- they'll give her LWOP because some of them may (rightfully so) think she has a screw loose and should not be put to death.

[M Joy]

That's true...that charge is murder committed during a felony, right? That's always seemed like kind of a long shot to me...I guess the felony would have to be the theft of Travis's gun (the one that never existed)? The other way I heard they could make it Felony Murder is that once Jodi attacked Travis she was no longer in his house with his approval and therefore the murder was committed during a burglary, so the felony part would be the burglary? or some far-fetched thing like that. Just doesn't seem very promising to me...

You're right. JM argued that the felony murder came in because once the first stab took place, she was no longer a welcome guest in Mr. Alexander's home so that is burglary. He didn't mention the gun because Jodi had not yet testified that she used TA's alleged gun.



JM's response to Nurmi's request for the felony charge to be dropped starts at about 42:30

[Wishmich]

I'm expecting a "quick" (within one day of deliberations) guilty verdict-- M1--- they'll give her LWOP because some of them may (rightfully so) think she has a screw loose and should not be put to death.

It's going to be hard for her family to sit up on the stand during the penalty phase and have the jury be sympathetic. Unless they have not seen the mom and aunt yukking it up in the courtroom. She really has no redeeming qualities, that I'm aware of anyway. If she had an IQ of 80, then I could see LWOP. But if this crime doesn't fit the DP, then really what does? A massacre of babies? If TA was an evil person that the world is better off without anyway, then I could see LWOP. I just really think that's what she deserves.

[dianalyn]

How do you know that he "let" her into his house that day?

Because apparently she is smarter than any of us and we are all too stupid to understand. If she explains it often enough or keeps repeating it then we will understand that Travis is the one who kept sleeping with Jodi, kept talking to Jodi, kept a relationship with Jodi so he was playing with fire. If he would have just used his intelligence, she does give him credit for being intelligent, then he would be alive today.

Hmm, thinks they are smarter than everyone in the room, feels the need to correct every minute thing any other poster says ... Jodi does not have internet access does she?

[dizzyp]

It's going to be hard for her family to sit up on the stand during the penalty phase and have the jury be sympathetic. Unless they have not seen the mom and aunt yukking it up in the courtroom. She really has no redeeming qualities, that I'm aware of anyway. If she had an IQ of 80, then I could see LWOP. But if this crime doesn't fit the DP, then really what does? A massacre of babies? If TA was an evil person that the world is better off without anyway, then I could see LWOP. I just really think that's what she deserves.

I have no way of knowing what the family's beliefs are on the DP. My personal belief is LWOP is the more effective penalty...
Plus the family doesn't have to worry about the 20+ years of appeals and delays that go long with the death penalty.

And, the reality is juries just don't like to put women to death:

"Twelve women have been put to death since the U.S. Supreme Court in 1976 allowed capital punishment to resume. In that same time, more than 1,300 men have been executed." http://www.azcentral.com/news/free/2...ates-prog.html

[Rachael123]

This is a test cause I can't find my last post:)

[dianalyn]

[QUOTE=AgathaAppleswine;3379273]No it hasn't. It's been spoken of, and brought up by the defense. The prosecutor is trying to steer clear of the stalker issue, since it's not able to be proven. It's too prejudicial to bring up, and could become an issue on appeals if he pursues it. So he doesn't.

[Metis212]

You're right. JM argued that the felony murder came in because once the first stab took place, she was no longer a welcome guest in Mr. Alexander's home so that is burglary. He didn't mention the gun because Jodi had not yet testified that she used TA's alleged gun.

video respectfully snipped for space

JM's response to Nurmi's request for the felony charge to be dropped starts at about 42:30

apparently Travis still had the engagement ring he bought for deanna. that ring was never found. also, we are yet to hear what happened to his room mates rent (about $900).

[dizzyp]

Because apparently she is smarter than any of us and we are all too stupid to understand. If she explains it often enough or keeps repeating it then we will understand that Travis is the one who kept sleeping with Jodi, kept talking to Jodi, kept a relationship with Jodi so he was playing with fire. If he would have just used his intelligence, she does give him credit for being intelligent, then he would be alive today.

Hmm, thinks they are smarter than everyone in the room, feels the need to correct every minute thing any other poster says ... Jodi does not have internet access does she?

saying that "Travis should have known better" shouldn't have let her in his house or slept with her, blah, blah, blah--- is exactly the same as saying s battered woman that stays with her batterer, sleeps in his bed etc. deserves whatever she gets because she should have been smart enough to leave before the violence ended in murder. Blaming the victim in any way is... ridiculous and shameful. No one expects to be murdered. duh.

[poppym]

Statement from Dr. Phil on his page.

"Been reading some rumors that we are paying for Arias family housing etc... Absolutely untrue. I have never met the Arias family, and neither I -- nor my production company -- has paid or promised them anything. Robin and I are praying for the Alexander family."

From Facebook:

[M Joy]

apparently Travis still had the engagement ring he bought for deanna. that ring was never found. also, we are yet to hear what happened to his room mates rent (about $900).

Oh wow. I hadn't heard those items were missing. Was that in Det. Flores' report?

[dizzyp]

Statement from Dr. Phil on his page.

"Been reading some rumors that we are paying for Arias family housing etc... Absolutely untrue. I have never met the Arias family, and neither I -- nor my production company -- has paid or promised them anything. Robin and I are praying for the Alexander family."

From Facebook:

another lesson in un-sourced internet rumors run amuck --

[dizzyp]

Statement from Dr. Phil on his page.

"Been reading some rumors that we are paying for Arias family housing etc..."

https://www.facebook.com/drphilshow
6,440 people like this.

[Peace Corpse]

That isn't even remotely close to what poppym was saying!!! You twist just about everything you read. It was NEVER proven that JA was the stalker/tire slasher/anon hate email writer. It was SPECULATED that she was the culprit, but there was NO evidence of it nor had she been charged with any of those things...thus why JM didn't "open that door" Good lord.

Once again, so you are saying that this brutal murderess who butchered poor Travis like a piece of meat, was not stalking him before her heinous act? Is this what you are saying? Based on all the evidence....the many photos, the many text messages, the many emails, the witnesses, the complete KNOWLEDGE OF THIS CASE etc. used as evidence in court..whether defense or prosecution.

What's happening here is quite simple..... some of you agree with me, some of you disagree. This is your right.

Now get over yourselves and let's make sure Jodi Ann Arias gets what she deserves which in my mind is clear and has been relayed on this thread time and time again.... Life or Death.

PS. You know it is kinda funny how you some of you choose not to look at the end result of my opinion. I have repeated the same things over and over again and why is that....? Even when it comes to what I believe the fate of Jodi Arias should be ... Most of you agree but yet I'm still blaming the victim? Think, really think.

[AlisonL]

Evidence speaks volumes. Pictures on the camera Jodi left behind. They were having a good old time....until...





So what you are saying then.... is Travis was never stalked by Jodi. Correct?

]Once again, so you are saying that this brutal murderess who butchered poor Travis like a piece of meat, was not stalking him before her heinous act?[/B] Is this what you are saying? Based on all the evidence....the many photos, the many text messages, the many emails, the witnesses, the complete KNOWLEDGE OF THIS CASE etc. used as evidence in court..whether defense or prosecution.

What is happening here is quite simple..... some of you agree with me, some of you disagree. This is your right.

Now get over yourselves and let's make sure Jodi Ann Arias gets what she deserves which in my mind is clear.... Life or Death. Thank you.

Do you read posts or what??? Please tell me where I said she WAS NOT stalking Travis?!? I NEVER wrote that. All I mentioned, was what everyone else here has mentioned. JM avoided bringing it up as it was NEVER proven therefore would be prejudicial. Do I think she was stalking him? Well, duh, yes I do. Quit twisting what I'm writing, it's fucking annoying and obnoxious. Not once have any of us said she wasn't stalking him. Maybe you should review the evidence and interviews??? Everyone else seems to understand why it isn't brought in BY the prosecution.

[Peace Corpse]

Do you read posts or what??? Please tell me where I said she WAS NOT stalking Travis?!? I NEVER wrote that. All I mentioned, was what everyone else here has mentioned. JM avoided bringing it up as it was NEVER proven therefore would be prejudicial. Do I think she was stalking him? Well, duh, yes I do. Quit twisting what I'm writing, it's fucking annoying and obnoxious. Not once have any of us said she wasn't stalking him. Maybe you should review the evidence and interviews??? Everyone else seems to understand why it isn't brought in BY the prosecution.

Good girl, now you know how I feel. See previous posts. Thanks.

[Metis212]

Oh wow. I hadn't heard those items were missing. Was that in Det. Flores' report?

I can not remember where I read it, sorry.

[AlisonL]

Good girl, now you know how I feel. See previous posts. Thanks.

Knock of the condescending asshole routine. It's not cute.

[Morticia]

Do you read posts or what??? Please tell me where I said she WAS NOT stalking Travis?!? I NEVER wrote that. All I mentioned, was what everyone else here has mentioned. JM avoided bringing it up as it was NEVER proven therefore would be prejudicial. Do I think she was stalking him? Well, duh, yes I do. Quit twisting what I'm writing, it's fucking annoying and obnoxious. Not once have any of us said she wasn't stalking him. Maybe you should review the evidence and interviews??? Everyone else seems to understand why it isn't brought in BY the prosecution.

I'm in agreement with you in every way. I've also come to the conclusion that some folks just like to stir shit up for their amusement and it isn't worth any further attention. Just repetitive crap.

[Peace Corpse]

Knock of the condescending asshole routine. It's not cute.

Just being honest....please review the evidence in the Jodi Arias case and my opinions if you are so inclined. It's that simple. But please know my opinion on the ultimate outcome deserved for Ms. Arias. ( see previous posts) Although, I do think killing her too soon would thwart all the Ph.D's out there. She needs to be studied. She IS an original. Is it evolution in the making considering the ever escalating numbness in our society. How did she become who she became? I still can't get over the physicality difference...( yes, even though he chose to engage with her and.... that lethal vulnerable shower). Look at Jodi....look at Travis. How did this happen and exactly.... why? No verdict will tell us these secrets. Not now, not ever.