"penetration of the superior vena cava" answers my question - thanks.Originally Posted by wasthinking
"penetration of the superior vena cava" answers my question - thanks.
There was a text message from Travis to Jodi that said he was sick of her antics and would expose her for being a sociopath, if I remember correctly. Just a short time before she killed him.
So what did she do to make him say she was a sociopath? I think that's a big clue as to the real reason she drove 1000 miles to kill him. She did something that exposed her in some negative light; after so many years of successful, arrogant manipulation to get what she wanted, it backfired. And the person who saw through her (even if he was just throwing "sociopath" around superficially) was the man she was obsessed with....so the exposure and rejection was especially acute.
Jealousy, Cancun, money owed, sex without the promise of marriage...all these things were motives, but I think it was a specific event precipitated by her and judged by him that caused her to make the final decision about ending his life.
I'll try and put up what I got in my transcribing way, I focused on capturing his answers .. but you'll see I used a short hand kind of thing for the questions.
And I tried to enter times periodically to correspond to the video of his testimony to make things easier to find.
---------------------
ME
Knee abrasion, post mortem, drying kind of yellowish
back
STABS
all to rib bones and spinal bone
@ 1:20
Exhibits 192- 199
back part of neck part of head
192 grouping, more likely than not occured close in time, most have same orientation, exception of one, all oriented same direction, diagonal right shoulder extending to the lower left side back.
Which exception?
Lower, there's a pair, appears that there's one that's sort of going in the other direction, the other diagonal.
Could be consistant with victim having back to attacker like this .. ?
Yes.
We have nine injuries, and they are all clustered together there in the center. Ah, what you're seeing on the upper left side is actually post mortem artifact. there's some skin slippage there and some drying.
Nine. They are stab wounds. They're all about the same depth, about an inch deep. and they're going into the back parts of the ribs and the spine. The spinal bone and stopping there. and none of them to my exam entered the chest cavity. although with decomposition you can't completely rule that out.
1:24:47 Appear to all have been stopped by the bones.
Pressure applied to them?
Depends on the force of the assailant and also type of weapon that is used.
Know aprx how much force applied or not?
I couldn't say, it would depend on the thickness of his bones as well as well so there's a lot of variables
But needless, they didn't go through the bone, right?
Correct
buttock area
this is lividity
Decomp include gases being expelled
yes
injury to neck, gases fluid maybe expelled out with the gases.
Yes, that's usual
194 - right foot
discoloration and also mummification of the sole of the foot, extending up on the side of the foot
left foot move up to knee area same we talked about was post mortem?
that was on the other side, but again, that has the same appreance, not the best view but looks
like it dried, almost like a parchment appearance and that's something that we see with a ..after death.
?left foot has the abrasion I think you called it
There's a contusion on ankle area and also abrated area of laceration on the achilles tendon
BACK HEAD
1:27: 44 193 again we talked about this grouping we see the head and neck lets take a closer look at that in 195
This is um after after I've inspected the back of the head, I shaved some of the hair away to better show the injuries and what you have here are deep incised wounds, they are longer than they are deep, but they are very deep, they're going all the way to the skull and there's two of them on the back of the scalp.
?Some force applied
Well if you had a very sharp blade it actually wouldn't take very much force at all to cut the, cut the tissue very deeply all it is is just connective tissue the forms the scalp. Now to go through the bone, that consid.. that would be a lot more force that would be needed.
That one is 2" on the autopsy report
? one above it
2" as well
? hair be a factor
his hair short .... don't think it played a role
1:29:29 198
What you actually see here are the ah the edges, ah its only one portion of those incised wounds we saw, there was some force that was applied that was sufficent to cause a divit in the skull bone this is actually after the skull, ah the scalp has been reflected away from the skull and what you see here is actually the divit in the center of the skull and over on the left side you see another one and there's hemmorage around those so the bone was actually sort of chipped away by the end of the implement there.
199
this to me is the tip of a, of a impliment probably the tip of a knife or something similiar because it has this very triangular profile. this is the bone and a piece of bone has actually been chipped away by the end of the ah, the object.
?back to 195 what, this divit in 199, where was it as it applies to these two.
Right right, there's one at the extreme left end of the longer wound at the bottom, and then one towards the middle of the top one.
? 196 focus on area down here at the bottom and also to the front.. take a look at 197, in terms of these two injuries we saw back there, where is this one now.
This one's actually ah, toward the front of the head, so you're looking at the top of the head near the hairline on the forehead and the very bottom you'll see Mr Alexander's eyebrow, his left eyebrow, so this is a small incised wound ah at the forehead near the hairline on the .. (cut off by JM)
? any of these with sharp intstument after death or all predeath.
I think they are all predeath they all have bleeding associated with them.
200 & 201
The ah, right side of Mr Alexander's neck behind the ear
? of all these injuries that we have taken a look at so far how many of those have been the type that would have been fatal of all the ones we looked at so far, the head the back, the front so far
Taken together all wounds of the back and the head could have been fatal from bleeding over time. Um the most significant wounds are going to be the neck wound which we haven't talked about yet, the stab wound that penetrates the heart ah the vein leading into the heart, and also the gun shot wound which we also haven't discussed.
200 @ 1:33:25
this is another stab wound of the back part of the skull behind the ear, so there's bone underneath there it goes down into that boney area and also goes into the muscle ah the strap muscle that is on the side of the head
below the ear
201
how big?
1 1/4"
202
that is the back opposite side of the neck on the left side of the neck and that's another stab wound
admits 202
?what do we see here
that is another stab wound back left side of the neck and that also penetrates into the uh muscle on the back of the neck
1"
NECK
1:36:00 203-206
Um, the largest wound to the neck, across the throat
? able to tell where wound may have started, left side right side or not?
I'm not able to say *** note docs frown!
203
side view of neck wound and its probably one of the better views to show how deep it goes
? how deep what was cut
can I refer to my autopsy report? (judge sure)
um passes through the um the airway so the windpipe is cut through, um
? juan let me stop you there .... lose ablitly to scream?
IT's ah, below the larynx, below the voice box, so yes
? if this person, well alive according to you right
yes
?where would the blood start coming out
well right next to the windpipe are the major vessels of the neck so you got the cartoid artery the jugular vein and on the right side not the left but on the right side .. (cut off by Juan)
?lets take a look at 204 thats the right side correct?
yes you're not going to be able to see it in this picture to any great
advantage but my examination did show the jugular vein and the cortoid artery on the right side were both cut.
? how deep
goes all the way back to the spine so its um 3" 4"
? if a person were .. spine is that were feeling stops .... ?
It doesn't go through the spinal cord so its, it doesn't penetrate that bone so its actually the soft tissue and structure of the front of the neck and then stops at the bone
205
front view of the same wound
? see how scalloped 1:38:41
Yes, there's some irregularity and a lot of that is do to the um the drying of the wound thats happened after death, ah, I, if you inspect the edges it is actually a clean incised and its retracted a bit and gotten a bit larger after death because the tissue has dried and retracted away.
?hestiation marks
...explains hestiation marks) 'we don't see anything like that here
206
?what are you doing here?
I'm trying to show the profile of the wound a bit better, I put the wound together so we have a sort of an idea what the wound looked like before it separated.
? see this right here (doesnt show on screen) is that an indication where it started or you can't tell ...
I can't say whethere is started on the right or the left but its across the neck
?? once in flicted on Mr Alexander ... type... 1. rapidly fatal 2. lapsing into unconsciousness.
Well he has two major vessels in his throat that have been cut, ah, he's going to loose a great deal of blood very quickly, he's going to lose consciousness within seconds likely and then die a few minutes later.
? able to get up and walk lets say like 12' 6" somewhere
Yes he could get up and walk a couple of feet, thats possible, he could move, yes.
? and then he would
interrupts Juan
"Collapse
? in terms of unconsciousness how much time are we talking about
Few seconds probably
? and death, how long would it take for this person to die if this was only wound?
If this was the only injury again, probably a few minutes.
? in this case though seen there were other injuries....and you alluded to there was a gun shot right, look exhibits
207 - 210
They ah show the gun shot wound to Mr Alexander's right forehead
? and we also have bullet did you recover it?
Yes
?whats this
Gun shot wound
?projectory
It ah, passes down through the skull passes throught the face and ah, downward and to the left and terminates in the left cheek
? able to tell distance
I'm not, I call it an indeteminate range, I don't have soot, don't have stippling, ah any of the indicators of a range of fire here
208 same injury w ruler
Yes
209
that is the left cheek and I made an incision and removed the bullet here.
? this bullet and the trajectory you discribed, did it affect the brain at all IOWs did it strike the brain or not.
It must have, it passed thourght the front right portion of the skull
Um, the problem in this case is the brain is decomposed and the brain is a very soft stucture to begin with so it falls apart very rapidly
after death so I was not able to see a track through but just because
the bullet passes through the front part (touching eyebrow) of the skull where the brain normally would be I have to conclude the brain was perforated.
? and if brain was perforated, what would happen to this individual
He'd be incapacitated
? went down?
Yes
?Immediately?
rapidly yes
210
That's the bullet after recovery
244 bullet, opened. my initials. admitted
? mechanizism of death, IOWS how did he die
Primarily blood loss
? tell me how that works on the body .. what that does to the individual as he dies.
Well after you lose blood you lose the ability to provide oxygen to your major organs including your brain and your heart. in this case the first thing that would happen would be dizziness, followed by lose of consciousness, and then death.
14630
? in this case you indicated 3 ... specific ... lead to death, stab chest, slitting throat, shot to head
? shot to head rapidly fatal?
Lkely would have been, yes.
? and by rapdily fatal what are we talking about
Well, if you have a projectile going throught the front part of the brain, um the person may not die immediately but they probably lose the ability to function, lnormally, they'll lose consciousness and they'll be laying on the floor.
? in very short order, shot and they go down?
Yes
?How about the slashing to the throat? terms of rapidly fatal or not?
I think by far its the most significant injury and ...
Juan interrupts, why do you say that?
Well its just the most ah, hemmoragic injury, its the one that I can demonstrate the most signifcant injury to the structures that are going to ?cause death like the cartoid artery, windpipe jugular vein
? and then the one to the heart is that .. which one of these .. least fatal most fatal
laugh, shakes head, probably the middle
ah, its a significant injury, it would definately cause death without medical attention
? would that cause unconsciousness immediately
yes, ah, not immediately, not the chest wound, no
? what I hear you say of the three we talked about ..2 throat and shot to head would cause unconsciousness quickly?
Immediate
?Immediate
Ya, yes
? and the one to chest would not
Less likely
? so if thats the scenio, this case we have the def wounds to hands what does that tell you about the sequencing of these three injuries?
I believe the wounds to the hands must have occured before the fatal injuries, either of the head or the throat
? so what you're saying is that, at some point during the stabing, but before the slashing of the throat and before the gun shot to the head
this individual grabbed the knife ...
attempted to
(objection)
Juan or the knife was applied
(obj leading) rephrase
? tell me about sequencing of events as it applies to the TWO injuries, one to the head and slitting of the throat and when this indivdual may have grabbed the knife or the knife was applied to his hands
with the throat wound and the head wound I don't think this person could have had a purposeful activity, meaning I don't think they could have raised their arms and attempted to defend themselves.
Witht the chest wound, thats possible because he wouldn't have been immediately unconscious
? in terms then between the other two the first wound IYO would have been the one to the chest
Ojection leading, rephrase
which one would have been first in your opinion?
well the stab would could have occured and then the def injuries happened after the wound to the chest occured
? then in terms of sequence of injuries.. what is your opinion
well the throat injury is, and or the head wound are going to be immediately incapaciated and he's not going to attempt to def himself after that
? in terms of shot to the head, do you have opinion as to whethere or not he was alive at the time that shot struck
I can't say
?Opinion to the wound to the neck ..alive or not
I believe he was, there's a great deal of hemmroging associated with that.
?and was he alive in regards to the one of the chest
yes, I believe he was
?can you tell re gun shot alive at that point
again there's a wound going through the head, I don't see hemmorage, don't see wound track, and so all I know is there is a bullet going through the brain. So I can't say with certainty
? don't see hemmoraging indication that the person was already dead?
He may have been, yes
1:51:31 Break
"Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are" --- Benjamin Franklin
Cross examine
?? JW good afternoon Dr Horn
Horn: good afternoon
?? you perform autopsy
Yes
?? You the only doctor
Yes
?? present was Det Flores right?
I have to refer to my autopsy report, Det Barientos and Det Flores were present.
?? and that's Det Flores here sitting at the prosecutions table
ya, yes
?? SKIP HER BORING FLORES CRAP asking 1000 times and Horn answering 1000 times, I don't remember talking to FLores.
?? during this autospy Mr Alexandar 2'9"
yes
??wieght 189
yes
?? 189 more likely in life he weighed more ..
yes
?? opinion about how much more he would weigh
(shaking head) I would go by his DL or recollections of family I don't have that information.
?? but we do know they're going to weight less during autospy
yes
?? um um um gun shot woundl, okay
pause (she's making him reply by waiting and looking at him)
yes
?? pics looks like gun shot goes in entry, well, you're familiar with what an entry wound means, right
yes
?? and an exit wound
yes, there is no exit wound in this case
?? okay and an exit wound is when a projectile is leaving the body
Yes
?? okay so there's an entry wound right above his right brow, is that right?
yes
?? and and just in the middle of his brow
ah
?? jsut above it actually
Just above it yes
?? and you said no exit wound
no exit wound
?? so that means that during autopsy you recovered ah the projectile in his left cheek, right
yes
?? or correct I should say (smiling like a snake ready to spit)
um and it was in, we know that, the trajectory, which is the pathway of the bullet, right?
It's the direction of the bullet, yes.
?? so we know that the direction of the bullet based on where it when in and where it lodged we know that is was coming in from the left and coming down?
Coming in from the right ... and going down and ending up on the left side.
?? I'm sorry, heading left
nodding affirmative, 'heading left, yes
?? coming in from the right hand side, heading in the direction of the left then lodging in the left cheek
Yes
?? okay and it was coming in a downward position right
It may have been deflected by the bone since its passing through the skull so the position in the cheek may not be the actual trajectory the beginning of its path
?? scalp wounds bleed a lot
YES, scalp wounds do bleed
?? so a gun shot to the scalp, or not the scalp ... a lot of blood tyically
In a living person, yes
?? okay and so if this bullet wound made in, while Mr ALexander's living there's going to be blood coming out?
yes
?? and it would be, of course in the pics we just see a small little hole but when it actually happened if Mr Alexander was living, there would have been quite a bit of blood coming from there.
Generally yes, depends on what other wounds happpened
??okay
so if the throats already been cut, and he's already been bleeding from that wound there might be considerably less blood from that wound.
"Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are" --- Benjamin Franklin
?? okay, assuming though that Mr Alexander was alive at the time the gun shot wound is done, so the heart is still pumping, in that situation you would agree there would be lots of blood coming from the gun shot wound.
In that abstract sense, yes
?? okay then the left cheek the projectile lodging in the left cheek thats something that would typically cause bleeding
UM, whereever it is along its path, its going to cause bleeding along the path, so yes, there's going to be bleeding into the cheek, bleeding into the forehead, and and into the skull ?intervening?
?? okay and cheek where you recovered bullet MR A alive ... blood into cheek and into his mouth
?? I don't have any evidence it passed through is mouth so if its actually going through, and when I say cheek (hold his own cheek bone)I mean this bone up here the maxilla which is really not connected to the oral cavitity except by the sinus. So I am not saying it went through is ORAL cavitity.
?? okay so your talking about it being lodged in the cheek bone
cheek bone, or beyond the cheek bone up here behind this soft tissue above where the mouth is
?? okay and you said that is connected to mouth through the sinus
Right, there's a maxillary sinus
?? alright so if there was bleeding assoc w that then expect to see blood into the sinus or through the nose and then eventually into the mouth.
it's likely yes
?? okay alright .. pathway.. well let me ask you this
(reasks stupid questions on stippling, he adds or soot, she has him give explanation on what they are explains no soot, could be something inbetween like towel .. )
it's intermininant, unable to determine
?? alright so we're talking about 2-3 feet away ...
that's likely
?? wound on back okay alright um nine right
yes cluster of nine
?? you call a grouping
yes
?? they are inbetween his shoulders right
yes
?? and these wounds you would consider very shallow that right
they are shallow, yes
?? and show you 193 pic of grouping.. right?
yes
?? alright ... center and THREE here more towards his r shoulder
Yes
?? group in ctr straight on
there appear to be straight, yes, there's ah, about equal tissue on either side
?? group in the center not diag incoming
well I think we got off on a side track on direct, that the, the directionality, the way they're orientated is diag but the track itself going into the tissue is pretty much straight on
?? okay so when you talk about direction diag ... not vertical
the owund itself is diag
?? not vertical up and down
right
?? so in directionality we're talking about where the instrument might have been coming from
Yes in terms of a trajectory
?? yes okay so in terms the tra, trajectory.. crt back.. looks like coming straight on
ah straight on from back to front, yes
?? okay and the goruping on the right look more like coming at a diag, the trajectory would be more diag
right if you look at the tissue on the side you can see that whitish tissue in the margin and your seeing fatty tissue sort of being shaved as the knife is going in so when I look at these three wounds here, it looks like the knife is actually going a little bit from right to left and into the back
??okay so from right to left so, so going in from his r shoulder going towards his middle
yes
?? and you already talked about these wounds being shallow. shallow typically means less force applied right
well it depends on whats, what the object that is being penetrated, um in this case there's of bone underneath these so whatever force was applied was insufficient to break through a rib or break through into the spine.
?? okay .. alright l.. if you assume that same instrument is used for all these different wounds, we know that some of these wounds are deeper than others right?
yes
?? andddd, for example wound that penetrates vena cava, that one was much deeper
Yes
?? and that had to go through cartlidge also
yes
??so that one would require more force
more than just going through soft tissue or fat, yes
?? okay .. back wounds no chipping of the bone or like that
No
?? and you'd agree .. 2 ppl.. person with knife reaching over .. the back that's going to have less force than someone standing behind and being able to drive the knife right in w/o stop
Generally I'd agree with that, yes
?? okay alrgiht vena cava wound
Lower right chest, yes
?? you said eventually fatal w/o medical attnn
Yes
?? and thats due to blood loss
Yes
?? um that wound able to tell trajectory or direction
Yes its huh, its pretty much straight into the chest cavity from the right side of the chest
?? doesn't it have a slightly upper trajectory
(checking pages of report)long pause
If it is its very slight because the vena cava is right in the location where the wound is
2:25:30
?? doesn't it have, let me know if you need to see a picture but doesn't it have an undetermined edge
I don't know what you mean undetermined edge
Undermined?
?? Im sorry under mined
Yes well that would indicate that the blade is, is angled slightly upward as its going into the skin so if you see more tissue on the lower part than the upper part then thats consistant with that, but we also have to keep in mind this is a decomposing person so the characters of wounds can change a bit
?? okay but based on what you saw .. you would say .. undermine edge ..more than likely going in at upper trajectory
Generally thats true yes
?? that means its going from down to up
Yes as the tip of wound, tip of the weapon is going in the body it has a slightly upward trend to it.
?? and that can happen when someone is taller .. than the person who has the knife right, you have to reach up
In a general way yes that true
??okay but that one is mostly straight in, IOWs not coming diag from right or left
Um the vena cava is slightly on the right side of the body, right side of the chest, so its right underneath where the stab wound goes in, essentially straight in, with a slightly upward trajectory
?? Dr Horn, you haven't seen this photo before today is that right
No I haven't
?? In that photo can you see a persons head
I think so
?? and a shoulder
Yes
?? and what appears to be an arm
yes
?? and at that back portion because its small is a foot right
(scrunched brows) could be a foot (looking like he thinks she is crazy)
?? going to ask you to assume that pic is of Mr A, okay
Okay
??um judge was going to ask to publish to the jury for demonstrative purposes
Judge need exhibit number
Horn, 162
Juan, and I would move that into evidence, 162
Judge: any objection
JW: no objection
DRAG pic on screen
JW: here you can see what appears to be a head right
yes
JW: this appears to be an arm
Horn: I think so, yes
?? shoulder
yes
?? very distant part of pic what appears to be a foot
yes
?? appear to be someone lying down, on the floor right
I think if this is tile yes that would be him laying on his back
?? see what appears to be blood
yes
??something that is dripping over his shoulder
yes
?? right shoulder wouldn't it
yes
?? also in this picture the arm is up isn't it
ah Looks like its flexed up yes
?? okay so IOWs its not just laying limp on the floor right
right
?? okay the head is also up right
yes except that I don't know what this blue object is, if its something the head is resting against or what this is in the foreground
?? does this appear to look like a foot and pant leg
Could be
?? shoulder is definately off the ground isn't it
I think so
?? assume for a sec if this is Mr A, once the wound to the neck occurs
having his head up and his arm up, certainly his head up, that would be near impossible wouldn't it?
Well like I said, he's going to have a few seconds of consciousness,certainly enough that if he is laying on the ground do raise an arm or raise the head that wouldn't be beyond the realm of possiblity.
?? but unlikely isn't it?
I wouldn't say that, no. I wouldn't think he'd be getting up and walking around picking your head up or moving yur arm is not impossible.
?? okay and you can see the blood coming over the shoulder right
yes
?? and if there was a neck wound at this point wouldn't you expect to see quite a bit more blood than that
I don't see whats underneath him, um that seems to be a lot of blood to me but I have no way of quantifying telling how much is here.
?? okay
Just based on this photo
?? okay and but we do know the blood is on the right hand side
yes
?? and we can tell at least from pic blood is dripping down the back , like its a drip isn't it
Right, theres like a large area of blood going back and theres some dripping on either side of that large area of blood.
?? okay and we do know for sure the gun shot wound was to his right
yes
?? talk a little bit more about the gun shot, obviously we know about, you discuss in your examination report, right?
Yes
?? and you talk about the track of the bullet begins in the frontal skull right
Yes
?? and when you're refer to the frontal skull you referring to a frontal bone
Yes, the frontal bone of the skull
?? okay and we know that it ends in the facial skeleton near the left cheek
Yes
?? and again, you told me earlier, facial skeleton you're referring to a bone.
Right. the maxalli bone
?? alright, um now in your report, and let me just ask you you did this, actually you did the autopsy on June 12 2008,
yes
?? so on June 12, 2008 after doing your report you found no gross evidence of intercranialo hemmorage is that right
Horn looking at report
?? Im looking on page 4
Horn: Um yes page 4 of my report
?? and when you talk about signifcant intercranial hemorage you're talking about bleeding, through the brain right
Right, and at this point the brain is really nonexistant, its almost ah, you can't exmine it, its basically become liquid
?? you can't examine it at all
(making face) its very diificult
2:33:50
?? but didn't you actually take slices of the brain and I'm referring to page 7
Horn looking through report,, Yes, so its softened, its not liquified,
it is, it is still present but its soft.
?? alright so so ..
Horn sitting up in chair
?? its'still there right
Yes, its always there its just the state that its in.
?? so the state that its thought you were actually in you were able to take what is called Multiple serial sections of autolyzed brain
Right so the autolosis or autolyzed thats the term refers to the liquify, liquify brain tissue or very softened brain tissue (stammers a bit)
?? and when you talk about multiple serial sections does that mean you're taking slices of the brain
As best I can, I'm I'm running a knife through the brain trying to examine it. That may, may be actual sections or just may be in, in terms of tryin to inspect internal parts of that tissue whatever there.
?? okay but according to your report thats what you did right?
Right
?? and in there, so in this part of your report, after going through these sections, again you say, does not reveal the presence of grossly apparent trauma, is that right.
Right
?? so by taking through these sections, again you don't find any evidence of trauma or like a bullet track throught the brain.
Nothing so clearly defined. No hemmroage no foreign bodies no metal fragments, right.
?? okay and we know people who've had injuries to their brain um depending on the section of the brain, they're not always incapciated isnt' that true.
Um for the most part if you have a bullet pass through the brain you're not going to be standing, your not going to be functional ah you're going to fall and like I said earlier in direct, it may not be immediately fatal, in fact it likely wasn't, passing through the frontal part of the brain especially, its not as vital, I mean they're all vital structures but, its not as vital as the brain stem or back parts of the brain.
?? well I just want to make sure we're clear, you don't have any medical evidence of it passing through the brain right?
It had to have passed through the brain
?? you don't have any medical evidence of that do you
I do, the skull is perforated where the brain is so it had to have passed through the brain, the brain is there.
?? but you have no idea, you have no medial evidence of how far or what part of the brain exactly it would have hit right.
It would have passed through the right frontal lobe,
?? uhhuh
I just don't have any evidence of hemmroage now because of decomposition, but it HAD to have passed through the brain because the part of the skull that was injured. The brain in a young person especially is flush against that stucture, the brain occupies the entire skull. So to have a hole in the skull here and have an exit hole here (pointing to nose bridge, in here, it HAS to pass throught the brain.
?? there is no exit whatya mean ..
(getting a little mad) The exit from the skull cavity into the face
?? Uhhuh so (smiling) but but what you're saying though is you have no idea how, where the bullet might have hit, it could have just grazed the tip of the brain right.
No it had to have passed through the right frontal lobe of the brain based on where these holes in the skull are, there's no way it could have avoided the brain.
?? okay are you sure of that
yes
?? um goes on to talk about arrows in head
Horn explains to idiot JW not the same with projectiles you don't just have an arrow passing through the head ... blah blah gases forced pressure expansile cavity going through the brain ...
?? so those won't cause as much damage as a bullet would
Thats right
?? But you didn't see any damage even in your slices right
right I could not document the damage because of the decomposition
?? now your findings in the autopsy thats something you would explain to Det Flores right
Priliminary, yes.
ton more Flores questions
ton more Flores denials dont remember
A few Juan objections sustained
JW chewing lip, doesn't know how to ask a question, ugh
Juan up to bat
?? (out of his chair like wild fire) sir in terms of sequencing of the wounds do you remember having an interview with this individual sitting here with the glasses (pointing to Nurmi) do you remember having an interview with him?
Vaguely, I do remember the def .
?? Juan interrupts, you were interviewed regarding this case right.
Yes
? and you have a copy of that interview don't you?
I do
? and you were asked about the sequencing of these injuries weren't you
yes
objection leading sustained
? alright did you talk to them about the sequencing of the injuries.
Yes
? and at any time did you stop the interview and say no I don't want to talk to you about sequencing of the injuries
No
? and were you asked about the sequencing
Yes
"Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are" --- Benjamin Franklin
? what did you tell them during that interview that you had with them
Ah, I felt that the gun shot wound may have been last but at any event um the gun shot wounds and wounds to the neck would have had to come after the defensive wounds of the hands.
? and is that what you told us today?
Yes
? now sir, in regards to the procedure or process that takes place when a body is brought in, in terms of when you conduct an examination who is in the room with you
AH, forensics technicans, photographers, sometimes medical students
? do you take the photographs
No
? in terms of LE, you indicated they were by your report right.
Yes, their in an observation room though
? in terms of the examination room itself, is the det there looking
over your shoulder and questioning you as you conduct examination is that how its done out there?
No
? where are they physically speaking, the det when this exam is going on
They're in an observation bay, separated by glass.
? and if they want to talk to you during this process how does that work.. IOWs if they want to provide you with advice as to whether or not an injury went through the brain or not, how is it they provide this advice to you?
They don't generally
? but if they do want to talk to you how does that happen
They have a handset they can pick up and I can hear them in the autopsy area. and then I will come to the door or the window and I'll talk to them.
? as you're conducting exam is it your practice to immediately form an opinion to which injury is first 2nd 3rd if there's 3
no
? why not, why would you not immediately tell them oh I know this one is first, this second ...
We can NEVER establish that ******************************
but I do want to have an opportunity to look at the whole case, get investigative reports back, get toxicology, histology and then come to a final report.
? this report you prepare, when is it due, IOWs how long take you
Various, min of a month, max of 4 to 5 months depending.
? in this case I think conducted autopsy June 16th I think
Ah, JUne 12th (looking at report).
? and what date is your report
July 15
?so thats roughly a month later
5 weeks
? how many pages your report
8 pages
? and anywhere in that report .. does it say ... seq, 1st last
no
? in terms of you being asked about the seq of events in terms of these fatal injuries, when, according to your records was the first time that you were asked about seq..
According to my recollection it would be at the def interview
? and before that, didn't write it in your report right
That's right
? and is it your practice to write a seq of events in your report
No
?Why not
It'd be speculative and I'm simply providing information about the injuries that i see.
? and then once you ahve a chance to see all this information thats when you make your determination, right
Yes
? you were asked about this photograph here, which is ex 162 (drag pic)
? one of the things you weren't able to see is there's a date and time associated with that, it that correct?
Yes
? what is the
June 4, 2002 .5:32 in the evening
? 16 secs right
16 seconds
? and it does show a head right
yes
? and you were asked over and over whether or not this was a foot, remember that
yes
? and if that were a human beings foot, would you have any problem saying that perhaps this human being had another foot if they were a normal human being
No
? and would you have any problem saying that if this individual had two feet, he also have two arms?
Yes
? you would see, would know that they would right
yes
? do you know whether or not the right arm or the left arm, do you know what that r or l arm is doing
No
? do you know whether or not the R or L arm is holding, what you said may have been ??? holding up that arm
Thats certainly possibe
? and you don't know for example what the left arm's doing do you
Thats correct
? and this part up here, I know this is ??? part of credibility and I don't know medical science but thats the top of the head right
Yes
? if im wrong tell me that
?right
yes
? and this part right here is the neck right
yes
? do you see any blood coming from down from the top of the head
Its very dark I cant say for sure whether ..
? do you see any blood coming from the neck area there
yes
? and if you see the blood coming from the neck area and you know the injuries, and assuming this is Travis Alexander what would you associate that blood with?
The cut to the throat
? with injury to chest area, if his head is up in that position and his arm is being lifted in that position and knowing what you know about gravity would you think this blood was coming from the injury to his chest or the neck area
? sir one of the things you were asked is the wounds to the back, do you remember being asked aboutthat.
Yes
?and this question may or may not be your area but with regard to human beings are mens arms longer than womens or not, I don't know
Generally longer, yes
? regard to a persons body generally speaking is a man's upper body, chest, is that bigger than a woman uuper chest
Bigger
? bigger and you were asked about the injuries to the back remember that
yes
? and you were asked well, is it possible that somebody coulda come aruond and with those injuries, given that those injures are there,they could come around, done this and done the injuries back there, do you remember that.
Yes
?and you said well its possible right.
Yes
? with regard to that particular scenerio is is also possible that an individual could also be hunched over and someone came up him and started stabbing him, are those consistant with that?
yes
? and with regard to the injury to the chest you said well its slightly upward, remember saying that?
yes
is it possible with regard to the injury to come up like this! (stab motion on the court reporter!) is that possible?
yes
is there any impediment or anything in the way of doing something like that! (stab motion on court reporter again)
no
? do we have to wrap arms aroudn somebody to get that injury or can you do it just like this (stab motion on court reporter again).
It can be from front or back
? is it consistant that injury of somebody sitting down (Juan squats)Travis Alexander, if he's sitting down and somebody is standing and they come up and do that (stab to court reporter again)is it consistant with that?
Yes
(court reporter keeping close on on Juan's every move)
? the issue of the gun shot wound. Did the gun shot wound go to, go through the frontal lobe or not?
It did
? if it goes through the frontal lobe, what does the human body do when a gun shot goes through the frontal lobe?
Well there's a shock to the entire brain, as the projectile is passing throuth so its just not like an arrow or nail, you also got exspansing, expanding gases, you've got a tumbling projectile so generlly you're going to have, its a shock situation, logic shock and those people are incapcitated.
? and that gun shot wound that we're talking about, did it go through the mouth or not?
It goes above the mouth, its in the sinus structures so bleeding out of the mouth is certainly possible.
? it ended up in the left cheek right
cheek, yes
? the distance of the gun shot wound, you said it was indeterminate right?
Yes that's right.
?And that based on the fact you don't see any stippling there right
yes thats right
? and indeterminate to you in this case, whats the, I know what the word means but, how far away, can you give us any parameters whatso ever as to how far or how close the gun shot was.
Again, I'm not a ballistics expert, um generally speaking for most fire arms, its going to be a min distance of a couple feetat least.
?okay. and this gun shot wound, was there hemmorage, hemmoraging that was associated with it
Uh in the scalp and in the cheek there is some hemmorage, here is no
hemorage detected in the skull itself.
? and what does that mean to you in terms ofseq whether or not the person was alive or not alive if there is not blood there.
If there's less blood it could just mean that the other injuries preceeded that and there was just less blood because there was just less blood to come out of the body.
? could this person have been dead at the time of the gun shot wound
Thats possible, yes.
? in terms of what an individual may have said or didn't say, your report did indicate Flores was present at autopsy right
Yes
? Does it have an MD after his name?
No
? so in terms of Det Flores what he may or may not have said do you have any idea where he gained his knowledge?
I don't, no
? But your knowledge is based on what, what you saw at autopsy, your schooling and anything else that was provided to you
Yes
no jury questions
If the stab wounds didn't penetrate his lungs, then the sharp object was not very long. Which brings up how the vena cava could have been penetrated. The vena cava is kind of cuddled by the lungs and behind the heart. If the object didn't got any further than "the bones," I have a hard time believing it could go as far as it could in his chest."The bones" are the ribs and they aren't that thick and there are spaces between them. None of this makes sense. Also, the wounds look like they are wide puncture wounds. Except for the scalp wounds, those look like cut marks.
No, they didn't go through the bone. I believe he said that they went into the soft cartilage between the ribs. The one that was the most severe penetrated the pericardiam and the vena cava. I think JM was asking him about the issue of Travis coughing out blood, and that's when the ME said Travis could have had blood in his throat due to some injuries in the neck area, or it's possible the knife could have nicked a lung.....but he really could not tell because of the state of decomp.
Most seem not to be over 1 1/2 to 2" and I remember wondering if that could suggest the knife was 2" wide. With the exception of the lateral abdomonial one.If the stab wounds didn't penetrate his lungs, then the sharp object was not very long. Which brings up how the vena cava could have been penetrated. The vena cava is kind of cuddled by the lungs and behind the heart. If the object didn't got any further than "the bones," I have a hard time believing it could go as far as it could in his chest.
As for the appearance of them, decomp widens them from drying and skin shrinkage etc so what we see at 5/6 days isn't the same as what they were when she killed him.
iirc the way he explained it was it was a sort of lucky (my word) shot slipping in between the two ribs. He is actually tapping his own chest when talking about it.
I don't see it, but if you find it in his testimony would you please let me know so I can add it.
if a bullet goes thru your sinuses you would have blood in throat and coming out of your nose. IMO gunshot was first. She said herself she made up her lies in order of events. She heard a gunshot first. Ninjas tried to killer her, gun jams -second shot to Travis Fail. Travis is begging for help. Run downstairs to get help but suddenly worry about what will happen to HER life, she grabs knife instead. Back upstairs Travis is on all fours. She starts stabbing him in the back. He defends himself running towards the door. Makes it where the tile meets the carpet. The end.
OR she did stab him first and tried to kill her self. Gun jammed and she held it down and shot Travis while she was standing over him. No way the linebacker demonstration convinced me. Notice she cocked her head a little. Only trying to make it match the autopsy report. Doesn't match it to the angle of the bullet. At all.
AND Flores stated himself he could not document the damage because of decomposition. Hello. No one will ever know but her. I sure was hoping for that Perry Mason moment. It really is interesting to hear everyone's take on it.
This bitch.............
Let me add....that picture if the ceiling light over the shower?? That was taken as a result of the gun shot. Boom.
The edit button is my mf'n friend!!
Last edited by DixieChic; 03-02-2013 at 07:37 PM.
If the stab wounds didn't penetrate his lungs, then the sharp object was not very long. Which brings up how the vena cava could have been penetrated. The vena cava is kind of cuddled by the lungs and behind the heart. If the object didn't got any further than "the bones," I have a hard time believing it could go as far as it could in his chest.
here is the me report on the torso - can you translate??
I can remember seeing and hearing Clint Eastwood, when someone asked him about Fatal Attraction, saying the words 'rip-off' in a very muted voice and in a very gentlemanly manner. Jessica Walters and Clint Eastwood were magnificent in that movie, (1971) and the soundtrack gets worn out in my house. Everybody on this thread should find and watch that movie before this trial ends.One of my favorite movies, ever! And scary as heck!!Yeah, I thought it fit pretty well.
Here's the 1971 trailer...
And while I really like Josh, Roberta owns the song imo...
That was May 26 and the gun was stolen two days later. That is the text that also said you scamed me! I'd love to know what that is referencing. It's also when he calls her a whore, slut, evil. and said "never been so hurt by anyone "
Im trying to hunt down one where he said PAY me or something like that. If you see it will you flag me on it please.
I sure will.....I'll see if I can find the exact location. I'll let you know!
The sex tape was totally set up for Black mail purposes. She brought up all the sexcapades on it in detail. Wonder if she threatened him with it leading up to his death. The throwing of the cd testimony could have been the sex recording not pictures!!
Sounds like: 5" blade, likely left-handed perp, hard stab went through the bone/cartilage junction and into the SVC. A bleedout death wound.
welllllll, lol, I'd have to first believe there even was a CD throwing ... which I don't. I thnk from the moment she had to pull out of Arizona, a homeless, penniless loser, back to that tiny box of her grandparents she decided he was going to pay with his life.
ITA the sextape was a plot / set up. I also think it worked against her. Not only hurting her sister terribly, but against her trying to make Travis a deviat. It showed she was definately leading it all and worse for her, she he liked it as much as him.
In Session is being cancelled?? I love Beth Karas.
I can see how people are still able to somewhat function after having gunshot wounds to the head (someone mentioned the kid who was shot in the head during Columbine and climbed out the window and survived). I just have a gut feeling that came last. Maybe she was hearing some "death gurgles" out of that horrific gaping neck wound and freaked out. Or she wanted it to look more like a robbery. I'm actually surprised she didn't do more damage to his face. Women have been known to do a bit of "overkill" and can be extremely brutal and destroy a person's face. Also kind of surprised she didn't do damage to his testicles, which sounds kind of weird.
(Catching up) This sequence makes me feel sick to my stomach. Poor Alexander
Okay....I found it. On Youtube, there is a video of Jodi Arias Trial Day 3 by a person eonblue3. It's a 3+ hour coverage of the testimony. The ME is testifying about the possibility of the lung being nicked at approx 1:09:17 location.
I still can't buy that the shower pics were consensual. Looking at his face at 5:27. He looks surprised. All of them are out of focus except for that face picture. If she is as professional as she claims, she would have better pictures.
I thought this was interesting too. HLN tried to re-enact the murder the way Jodi said it happened. http://youtu.be/tZ_q7FuWk7c
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