I totally getcha. I had scrolled through the pics several times last night before I noticed them.Originally Posted by beli
From what I read, the mat was 6 feet long. I specifically sought out that info because mat sizes very, particularly if they're practice mats as opposed to mats for official events. I'll look for the place I read that.
Sorry for the double post but I didn't think my kid was going to allow me to mess around on the computer any longer!
OK, here's one of the places I read it ... This is a really long transcript including a CNN anchor (Blackwell) interviewing a former FBI dude: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...25/smn.02.html
Here's the part talking about the size of the mat and that he was found with his arm extended (I knew I read late last night that his arm was extended as if supposedly "reaching for something" so I was glad to find it here.)
There's more where that came from at the link above.BLACKWELL: Well, now the Department of Justice is reviewing this case.
Joining me now is former FBI federal agent and private investigator Harold Copus.
It's good to have you back.
HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI AGENT: Thank you, sir.
BLACKWELL: You've read over the autopsy report, the paramedics report, all the documents and know about this story. Let's start here with just the dimensions.
County officials say that 5'10" Kendrick Johnson was reaching into this mat, it's 6 feet tall, right, arm extended. His shoulders are 19 inches wide, the hole in the center is 14 inches wide.
Do you find that suspicious?
COPUS: I find a lot of it suspicious and one of the things that really makes me wonder is that he's reaching for one shoe. How did that shoe get into this mat? Makes you wonder who was in there, was there some horseplay, did someone see it? There are more questions here than there are answers right now.
BLACKWELL: OK. Let's talk about this paramedics report. You have a copy; I have a copy. Let's start with this element of bruising of the face. Now the family says they were told there were no bruises, no signs of foul play, but the paramedics report says that there was bruising noted on the right side of his jaw.
COPUS: It does. And what's interesting is when you look at the autopsy report, there's no mention of any bruising, so it doesn't make any sense. Now, you might get away with that by saying maybe when he went into the mat, that bruised his face. I don't know. No one knows, but that doesn't -- something doesn't ring true here.
The more I hear about this story the more confused I get. Why did someone say the COD was cardiac arrest? Why did the coroner say "destroy" the interview? He had to have known they wouldn't do that, and they would make it public that he requested the interview be destroyed.
"The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin
I called myself a dipshit.Who called you a total dipshit?
My point is that the more I mull over any plausible "accident" that might have occured, the more that foul play makes sense.
I understand what you're saying. But even when taking foul play into consideration, it's just as plausible that someone rolled him up in the mat and he kicked his shoes off while struggling as the theory that someone rolled him up in the mat and then threw his shoes in there after.
I just figured there had to be more than one pair of shoes, otherwise his family would be quick to point out the impossibility that he was reaching for one of the shoes in the pic.
Wow! Imagine a setup that fucking bad.
If the mat was upright and he was stuck in it, if he moved around enough wouldn't he be able to knock the mat on its side?
"The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin
Depends...if it was by itself, yes, but they said mats so it could have been quite a few stacked
I was asked to give my opinion on this case.
From the coroner's report that was linked up thread.
http://valdosta.sgaonline.com/2010vd...ck-johnson.pdf
The body is received in a body bag lying on and partially wrapped in a white sheet, the portion of the sheet corresponding to the upper body shows varying amounts of decomposition fluid soiling predominantly centered on the head. The body shows congestive-decomposition changes of the head, neck, torso and bilateral upper extremities; purge fluid drains from the nose and mouth.
Congestive-decomposition changes are manifested by variable bloating, red-green-black skin discoloration with and without marbling, vesicle formation and skin slippage of the head, neck, torso, and upper extremities; the changes increase in the degree inferior to superior. Early hair slippage, purge and a foul odor are also present. The head is normally formed and the nose and ears are not unusually; the left ear shows a bent-lobe position-artifact. The lips, gums and oral cavity are without obvious focal lesions. The neck is without masses and the larynx is midline.
Evidence of Injury:
Blunt Force Injury:
On the right posterior-medical wrist there is a 1/8 x 1/8 inch superficial abrasion. On the left distal 4th finger, involving the dorsal skin just proximal to the cuticle, there are two superficial abrasions measuring 1/8 x <1/8 inch and 3/16 x<1/8 inch.
On the left distal 4th finger, involving the dorsal skin overlying the distal interphalangeal joint, there is a 5/16 inch superficial tear with no associated hemorrhage.
No other injuries are identified.
Radiographs: A postmortem head x-ray is performed at autopsy and is negative for bony abnormality/fractures or radio-opaque weaponry.
Given the complete autopsy including toxicology and histology, the scene photographs, the scene forensic testing, the law enforcement investigative findings including crime scene investigator report and witness statements, and the coroner?s findings, it is my opinion the cause of death in this case is positional asphyxia and the manner of death is accident.
His face does not have any signs of trauma. It's bloat from hanging upside down for a day, fluids pooling causing swelling. The fluids on his face is drainage. This kids entire body fluids drained down into his head. This causes leakage and slippage.
I think the red-green-black skin discoloration is what the paramedics noted as 'bruising' and is actually decomp. I only mention this because I saw someone post something about it. I didn't read it in an article or the coroner's report. (just for clarification)
The injuries on his fingers are not consistent with trauma. I bet almost all of us have similar 'injuries' at this very moment. Also, there was no hemorrhage noted and this gives me the impression the 'injuries' were old/healing.
The x-ray shows no fractures.
With this info, I agree with the coroner. Positional asphyxiation. Remember the lady who locked herself out of the house and tried to climb in a window and died of positional asphyxiation? I think it was near Dayton/Cincinnati, Ohio. Well, that lady's face, more than likely, looked very similar to this kid.
As far as the mat. I used to coach 5th grade girls basketball and the gym we used had those mats. Not all of them were rolled up very well. The kids played all over them. Some were laying horizontal and some vertical. One kid fell between them. Luckily, it was a roll near the edge. We had to get a couple of the other coaches that were in nearby gyms to help get the kid out. One coach got a thing that kind of looked like a sling to tip the rolls over.
Is it possible this kid was murdered and placed in the mat? Sure, if the murderer could replicate the cause of death. Do I think it's possible the kid got stuck? Yes, and I believe this is the likely answer. The shoes- an article said he was changing shoes. The shoes in the pic look like they are new, maybe those were his 'gym' shoes. I think he likely kicked them off while struggling to get out of the mat.
People have died in stranger manners. Ways that don't appear to be scientifically possible.
I think the issue is with the handling of the scene. I think the body may have been moved (prior to the coroner arriving) by the medics. The autopsy report said he didn't have rigor, so the medics may have pulled him out to try medical intervention. When they saw the decomp and checked for a pulse (have to check for a pulse) the coroner was called. Albeit, not for a long while. I don't think the issue is with the manner of death. I really believe it is with the law enforcement agency involved in the case.
And here we are. That makes for a lot of WTF.
That I don't believe the kid was murdered?
Just because law enforcement fucked up a scene does not mean they are trying to cover up a murder.
Medics moving a body is not a WTF if they can't tell the dude is dead. Happens all the time. Doesn't mean there is a cover up.
However, I am confused as to why the coroner was not called/did not arrive for hours. I'm also confused about a post up thread that said the coroner wanted an interview to be destroyed. I don't know what that's about.
The injuries are not consistent with a murder. Because, there is no injuries.
I dunno what you are WTF'ing. Please elaborate.
There you go.
Nah, he played three sports, including football. He was an extra-special jock.
My guess is he had the second pair of shoes on top of the rolled-up mat. Took his old shoes off to change, then accidentally knocked one of the new ones down in the hole as he reached for it to put it on. If there were a lot of those mats stacked up together, it would be a pain in the ass to unroll/move them all. He was probably in a hurry--it was between class periods--and thought it would be quicker to try and snatch it. Can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing...who the fuck expects to get stuck in a gym mat? It's so awful.
But just because the mats can (and should) be rolled tightly doesn't mean that particular one was stored properly.
I agree. Freak accident, not murder. It definitely warrants further investigation/disciplinary action into the way the thing was handled, though.
MorbidT - The interview says there was a class after Kendrick went to retrieve his shoes. How long would positional asphyxiation take? Couldn't he have yelled for help?
The interview also says his shoulders were 19" wide and the hole 14". That's impossible. Maybe the hole was supposed to be 14". Anyway, once his shoulders got through, I can see him falling down to the bottom, he was a thin kid. (Kind of like childbirth)
It could have very well been a terrible accident.
I don't think the coroner should have complained about the body being moved. That's what first responders do, get to the person and try to revive him. How could they do that if he was upside down inside a mat? He was just trying to get his 15 minutes, but then wanted the tape destroyed because he knows he's in the wrong.
I feel sorry for the parents having to through all this again, because of some political maneuvering.
Positional Asphyxia can kill you in minutes.
Also, as a first responder, we fuck up crime scenes ALL the time.
Maybe they only have one coroner and he was tied up on another call? That happens to us all the time, small town, one guy on.
This happened in January in the middle of wrestling season? how was he not found immediately? those mats should have been in use regularly.
Marshmallow here is the one I liken to Ed Gein... Originally Posted by Heartbroken1
I just don't see how LE 'allegedly' fucking up a scene is going to change the kid's cause of death. The autopsy report shows no signs of foul play. Just because a picture is going around the internet and untrained people think the kid's face looks like the shit was beat out of him doesn't change anything. The picture looks exactly like what it should look like under the circumstances.
As far as the coroner and me being confused. I'm confused because one member mentioned he wants an interview destroyed. I haven't heard or read anything in regards to this situation, so I have no idea what they are talking about. Just because the coroner is being a dick also doesn't change the cause of death.
I just don't see a conspiracy theory here.
All of this makes logical sense.
As punker said, positional asphyxiation can happen quickly. The diaphragm needs to contract, and the lungs need to be able to expand. That's why our chests expand, it's making room for our lungs pulling in air. It's also possible to be able to take short breaths because the lungs are able to expand a little. But, the short breaths is not enough oxygen to perfuse the body so the person passes out and eventually stops breathing, which leads to cardiac arrest.
Another thing with this kid is his entire fluid volume was being pulled to his head. This will also make someone pass out. Ever hung upside down on something, like, a swing, the monkey bars, off the edge of a bed, etc. and feel the blood rushing to the head? That's what I'm getting at.
I think it is possible he wasn't able to call for help because it was too tight of a space for his diaphragm to contract and his lungs to expand. On the other hand, if he was in the gym by himself, he may have been yelling (as loud as it was possible) and no one heard him.
I don't find his shoulder size and the diameter of the hole to be suspicious. If he had one arm outreached it would change his width. Also, he could have curled his shoulders inward. Have you ever heard of the stories of toddlers falling in wells and pipes (and kitties)? They were too wide for the pipe, but somehow managed to slip down it. How about people sneaking through air ducts?
I'm still confused over this interview the coroner did. Can someone provide a link or explain what it was, exactly?
Oh Right- My response isn't (all) directed at you. You seem to understand the gist of it. I just wanted to expound on your comments for everyone else.
For reals, yo.
You're asking why people thought something was up in the first place. I was explaining why. Fucking up the scene didn't "change" the cause of death, but shady seeming initial behavior made people ask questions. It doesn't take much to get someone to sign a paper. That makes some people skeptical.I just don't see how LE 'allegedly' fucking up a scene is going to change the kid's cause of death. The autopsy report shows no signs of foul play. Just because a picture is going around the internet and untrained people think the kid's face looks like the shit was beat out of him doesn't change anything. The picture looks exactly like what it should look like under the circumstances.
As far as the coroner and me being confused. I'm confused because one member mentioned he wants an interview destroyed. I haven't heard or read anything in regards to this situation, so I have no idea what they are talking about. Just because the coroner is being a dick also doesn't change the cause of death.
I just don't see a conspiracy theory here.
I don't know why you keep saying anyone is trying to change anything though.
You're kind of like "I TOLD YOU GUYS 1,000x ALREADY!" But you've only said it once. Simmer down, killer.
Yeah. I respect mT's and Punkers expertise, but I still think this one stinks.
Ahhh, ok, I still don't see anything suspicious.
911 call comes in to dispatch. It is relayed to the medics as 'a male complaining of chest pains.' I haven't heard the 911 tape, ftr. Do you know how many times 911 calls are dispatched and don't match up to the scene once the medics arrive? Dispatchers can only relay what they've been told. Ex: "Yes, my dad is complaining of chest pain. He says he can't breathe." Dispatch relays info. Medics arrive on scene and the guy has a knife sticking out of his chest, or has a gunshot wound, or fell on a rake. Yeah, he has chest pain and shortness of breathe, but the caller failed to mention the trauma. That's just one example and it happens all the time. It isn't the dispatchers fault for relaying the wrong info. The caller didn't provide all the info.
The FBI dude says the cops were probably at the scene first. This may be true, but he made it sound like the cops arrive to scenes before medics. This isn't necessarily true. There was no reason for the medics to believe this was an unsafe scene, so they very well may have arrived first. It doesn't really matter, though, because it was a safe scene.
I don't know who took the pic.
The paramedics are required to look for signs of life. So, it is appropriate for them to move the body. Does this compromise a scene? Yes, but the most important thing is to save a life. Medics are trained to protect the integrity of scenes, but when saving a life is involved, that takes priority. They had to move the body to check for signs of life and/or start medical intervention. This really should not be questioned. It's not like the kid was found laying in the middle of the gym floor. He was found in a confined space.
The coroner: It is appropriate for the coroner to feel the scene was compromised. It was because the medics were following protocol. I wonder what the rest of the interview and email entailed. It was a dumb move to ask for it not to be aired. As far as the coroner not getting called in a timely matter (the video said 5 hours, other articles are saying 6 hours). I would like to see LE/EMS/Coroner timelines. It all has to be documented. Bob thought Joe called the coroner. Joe thought Dick did. Dick thought the medics did. This is not unusual. It's not right, but it doesn't mean there is a cover up. Typically, LE/EMS/Fire will radio dispatch for dispatch to contact the coroner. BTW, everything that is happening on a scene is communicated (is suppose to anyway) to the dispatch center. They create a 'log' or timeline of events.
The only people who felt the investigation was fucked up is the parents. Then people joined in on the bandwagon because they've only heard what the parents have said. Now the Justice Department is getting involved. Someone will be fired because something has to be done to suffice the outcry of an alleged cover up.
The medics documented 'bruising.' The coroner documented discoloration and decomp. It's the same thing, different words. Just an FYI, if medics are on a scene and a patient has an obvious, open femur fracture, the medics cannot document or communicate the patient has an open femur fracture. It has to be documented and communicated that it is a 'possible' femur fracture. A medic cannot document/communicate someone is having a heart attack, even though the limited diagnostic equipment used out in the field suggests (key word) it. It has to be documented/communicated as a 'possible' heart attack. Just giving some education to everyone as to why/how medic documentation differs from hospital/coroner documentation.
Nothing would be 'suspicious' (to laymen) if the coroner had been called in a timely matter. That's what needs to be investigated and I guarantee there is a record, somewhere, that we are not privy to at the moment. At this point, everything adds up to an accident and has nothing to do with race.
Oh, and it was cardiac arrest in the initial stage. If someone does not have a pulse and their heart is not beating, they are in cardiac arrest.
The problem with the rest of this case is uninformed and uneducated (as in untrained) people are making assumptions and forming opinions about something they don't know anything about.
I'm not acting like that at all. Your response to my post was it is full of WTF. I didn't understand why you felt that way and wanted you to elaborate, because you didn't in your initial response. That's all.You're asking why people thought something was up in the first place. I was explaining why. Fucking up the scene didn't "change" the cause of death, but shady seeming initial behavior made people ask questions. It doesn't take much to get someone to sign a paper. That makes some people skeptical.
I don't know why you keep saying anyone is trying to change anything though.
You're kind of like "I TOLD YOU GUYS 1,000x ALREADY!" But you've only said it once. Simmer down, killer.
People are trying to change the cause of death. From positional asphyxiation to an ass beating.
After reading a few more articles, I am even more convinced the scene was not fucked up. The medics followed protocol. It's a bitch for LE and coroner, but it is not atypical and/or inappropriate for the medics to do what they did. Homicides are solved everyday even when medics move the body. Victim laying in the middle of the road with a gunshot. Medics swoop the victim up. Victim dies. LE/coroner still has to work the scene. Without a body.
TBF, the information I used to come to my conclusion was already posted in this thread. So, even though I only provided the information once, it was already there for the reading.
i just don't see how anyone wold try to hang themselves upside-down in in a confined, 6-foot deep tube and think they would get back out... i guess maybe he was that dumb, but the wind blew my purse into a trash can that came up just higher than my waist the other day and i had a hard time fishing it out!
ETA: without falling in...
Last edited by animosity; 06-20-2013 at 09:01 AM.
Yep. In Ohio, medics can 'pronounce' time of death, but they must first call Medical Direction. MD is the nearest hospital ER physician. You provide appropriate info and then the doc will say whether or not pronouncing someone is appropriate. Other states do this too and it has been under scrutiny because pronouncement has been made and the person was actually still alive. There was a case in NV with a chick found unresponsive on the sidewalk. Medics pronounced and LE was working the scene and realized she took a breath. It's also happened a couple of times in MD.
But you are right. The doc will call time of death once they reach the ER doors. DOA.
Oh, it could definitely still be that way for air ambulances. I don't know how they operate.
In my state, or at least in the ER where I work, the paramedics can and do pronounce people dead at the scene without involving our ER physicians, when the death is obvious. Those people are never transported to the ER to be pronounced DOA by a physician. On the other hand, if the paramedics initiate resuscitation at the scene, they are required to contact an ER physician for advise as to whether they should continue resusitation or call it. If there is any question at all, obviously the patient is transported to the ER.
I agree that the autopsy report is consistent with the cause of death being positional asphyxiation and this was most likely a tragic accident. Will the second, independent autopsy reveals anything different? I kind of doubt it but maybe it will at least give Kendrick's parents some answers?? I guess we'll see! I have a feeling there is going to be a big law suit involving this case.
Thank you for all that info, MorbidT! After reading everything you wrote, I'm definitely thinking it was an accident. The only thing I am confused on, and I don't think anyone has explained (I could've skipped over it so I apologize in advance if I'm wrong) is how he was able to get in there. If I remember correctly, the rolled up mat was taller than him. Seems to me if would be impossible, or really hard, to pull youself up with nothing to put your feet on to help you up. Guess there must've been something near there he was able to stand on? I know in an article I read, the issue of the mat being taller than him was brought up, but I never saw anything that could explain that part.
Happy Birthday! I hid a dead body in your backyard to celebrate. Good luck finding it under the cement. You can only use a stick to look for it.
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