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Thread: Joseph McStay (40) was found dead in a desert grave, along with his wife and their two young children

  1. #176
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    A reward of $1000? This is a family with means. I do not think they want to be found or the family knows more. Maybe witness protection? $1000 is very disturbing.

  2. #177
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Yeah, $1000 isn't anything. I think people have argued with Patrick (the dad) over raising the reward. He's full of excuses. The brother has his own fund. Patrick is actually estranged from the family. I'm not sure what it's over, but it may have something to do with Patrick being a douche.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  3. #178
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    Has anyone been keeping up with this case? I have been doing some reading this morning online about it. I haven't read Rick Baker's book yet (his blog is here http://rickgbaker.blogspot.com) - but there have been some FB posts that I did some googling on.

    Bit of background -

    Dan Kavanaugh (DK) was an employee of Joseph McStay
    After the McStay's went missing, DK apparently transferred a bunch of money from their accounts and also sold their business
    I always thought that he must have been involved in harming them/causing their disappearance/or that he knew more about what happened to them
    Until today I hadn't thought about the possibility that he was working WITH the McStay's to help aid their disappearance
    I found out today that DK's grandfather was John Pugsley (died in 2011)
    Pugsley was a survivalist and had lived for years (I think) on a boat
    Money was transferred from the McStay accounts TO Pugsley by DK after they went missing
    Could this money have been used by Pugsley to help set the McStay's up in a new country or location?

  4. #179
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    I didn't know all of that, and it IS very interesting. As soon as I read the bolded part above I had the same thought you ended up having, that he was helping the McStays. After your research do you have any thoughts on why they might want to disappear?
    I am hesitant to let the Rick Baker blog sway any of my thoughts, because I think he is part con-man or at least dodgy. However, some of the evidence is there and it's interesting.
    A few theories that I've read - I am not sure which one I think is right:

    - Summer McStay was found to have googled a herbal/naturopathic product called Anger before she went missing. She didn't vaccinate her kids, gave birth at home etc. I think she was trying to avoid 'medicine' as such. Perhaps Joey was exhibiting signs of anger and rage. He may have killed her and ran off with the boys. There was a body found in Woodbury, NY and Summer McStay was listed as a possible match to it (it has been found not to be her). I wonder why police would even consider her as a possible match, as everything to date has said the family are 'voluntarily missing'. Perhaps they have some inside knowledge of Joey's temper?
    - The stress got too much for them and they ran off. Joey had been sick and was hospitalised before they disappeared - I think for asthma and anxiety?
    - Summer killed Joey and ran off with the kids and another man.

  5. #180
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    Here is the article about the Woodbury body - http://westchester.news12.com/news/p...?firstfree=yes

  6. #181
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    I knew about Joey being sick before they disappeared, but I didn't realize she was so anti medicine. Those two things seem like they might lead to a confrontation. I know that late last year a lot of people on another website were convinced that they had found Summer in New Mexico. Eventually the person who they thought was the missing Summer (this one had the same name) was looked at and wasn't who they thought it was. That episode however (and all the suspicions they brought up) certainly show that many people think she might have killed at least Joey, if not all of the family.
    Was it Websleuths? That was all so crazy. If I remember rightly, they contacted the person who was living in the house and she denied being Summer, and that was that. I don't know if anyone actually sighted the NM person or whatever. There seemed to be some legit proof that the person in NM was related to the McStay case (if it wasn't them), but everyone seemed to drop it quickly.

  7. #182
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    I didn't know if I could name it, but yes, it was Websleuths. I'm pretty sure they hounded local law enforcement until someone went out there and checked and said it wasn't the missing Summer McStay. I haven't read the blog you linked, but I am going to try to read through it over the next few days. I know he's writing a book about it, but like James Renner with Maura Murray, at least it gets people looking at the case and thinking about possible theories.
    He has written the book. I've just ordered it off ebay. From what I've read, he likes to sensationalise so I will take the info with a grain of salt. But I still want to read.

    This is interesting - he says it's an unpublished chapter from the book which suggests yet ANOTHER theory. Joey has an older son to another woman. The author says that Joey and Summer wanted to get custody of the son (who was allegedly being abused by the stepfather) and that their disappearance stems from that.

    http://rickgbaker.blogspot.com.au/20...from-rick.html

  8. #183
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    I was just reading this blog entry. If all this really happened with the older son, it would make sense that it's a potentially valid reason for them to disappear. You would think though if they could get replacement ID that easily and disappear, they would have taken the 15 year old son with them too.
    That is true. It is interesting though that there is actual proof that there was a CPS investigation, and that it concluded in early February. And they go missing on 4 February?!?!?

  9. #184
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    Again, I am just getting started on reading the blog, but do we know what the results/findings of the CPS investigation were?
    I think that the stepfather was found to not have abused Joey's son - he apparently has two other strikes, so if there was any evidence at all, I am sure CPS would have acted?

    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    Alright, so I finally made it through the blog...interesting to say the least. I want to talk about Summer and would like to wrap my head around her and her issues to help me understand some of the other things that happened. So I understand that the implication is that she has Borderline Personality Disorder...was she officially diagnosed or is this just an educated guess based on her behaviour? I'm wondering if her aversion to medicine/hospitals and her name changes might stem from a previous stay in a mental hospital. All of this might be out there somewhere, as I admit I am not as up on this case as I would like to be. It just seems to me however that she was running from something, and based on her behaviour, I don't really think it's a criminal past but instead think it might be a full blown mental breakdown type situation.

    I've even wondered if she could have had a full on breakdown the night they went missing. Could she have been delusional and it caused her to attack Joey and flee with the kids. Even if they are all still alive and together, could she be so delusional that she is imagining a conspiracy against the family (maybe over the CPS case) that is way blown out of proportion? Could she have convinced Joey that her mental state was real and not delusional and convinced him that they had to leave immediately for their own safety? All of her actions of pulling away from her family and everyone else, in addition to keeping the boys kind of separate from society (home birth, home schooling, no medical interactions) makes me think maybe she was already in a state where she looked at everyone else as the enemy and out to get them. Maybe something (CPS case?) pushed that delicate mental balance over the edge? I'm really just brain storming here but these are definitely feelings I had while reading over the blog and some other news stories.
    I haven't read any more of the blog yet. I will get onto it tonight.

  10. #185
    Senior Member ImBatman!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    Yeah, I found my answer about the CPS investigation results in the blog. It definitely said they got the letter on the 4th stating that there was no case. I still find it strange that if they really thought Jonah (I think that's correct) was being abused that they wouldn't have taken him with them if they planned the disappearance. Of course each person you add to the group makes it harder to blend in.

    I didn't really get a whole lot about Summer and her Borderline Personality Disorder off the blog...just vague feelings and hints that made me want to see what others thought.

    I see that ImBatman! is online on this thread-any thoughts on Summer's mental health?

    I don't know if it has been mentioned anywhere else (I certainly have not run across it elsewhere), but the blog mentions that Summer was pregnant. Could that have exacerbated the mental health issues?
    I don't really have any thoughts as of yet...now that this thread has been bumped I will go and read the blog though and report back!
    "Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; They listen with the intent to reply." ~ anonymous
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  11. #186
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    Hey raisedbywolves, where did you read Summer has BPD?

  12. #187
    Senior Member ImBatman!'s Avatar
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    Hi wildlifecamera! I read it in an article that I cannot seem to locate and I know that it has been mentioned on the blog that raisedbywolves posted.
    I haven't had time to read into this case as much as I would like but I was fascinated when they disappeared and continued my interest when they thought they found Summer here in NM. After that proved to not be true I kind of lost interest.
    "Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; They listen with the intent to reply." ~ anonymous
    "Keep calm and sing Soft Kitty"
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  13. #188
    Senior Member ImBatman!'s Avatar
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    Ok I still don't know enough to even presume that Summer may have suffered from BPD or Schizophrenia. Even if she did, this family has been either voluntarily missing, something bad happened missing or in Witness Protection missing for a long time.It is one thing to enable someone with a mental illness and another to follow them into their delusions or hallucinations, foile a deux is the clinical term which in and of itself is extremely rare. I would like to think that the family is happy living on a beach in Mexico somewhere but I have a feeling that they are no longer alive and yes I do realize that people can stay missing if they really want to but it is much harder with kids!!
    "Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; They listen with the intent to reply." ~ anonymous
    "Keep calm and sing Soft Kitty"
    "it is what it is!"

  14. #189
    Senior Member ImBatman!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    I totally agree on all points. I think the family is no longer alive, however the whole BPD thing (I think the Schizophrenia is unlikely) does provide an interesting discussion into the what ifs. On top of Summer being BPD, what if Joey had his own mental issues? What kind of combination could that result in? I know that's a rhetorical question with all the 'what ifs', but I think the mental illness 'diagnosis' might be correct and it certainly muddies things.
    I totally agree a mental illness could have been a big contributing factor in the initial disappearance. I may be way off base but with the knowledge of potential illnesses in one or both parents, the way they left, and possibly some unsavory aspect, a possibility could be murder/suicide?
    "Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; They listen with the intent to reply." ~ anonymous
    "Keep calm and sing Soft Kitty"
    "it is what it is!"

  15. #190
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    Raisedbywolves, are you most fascinated by cases with psychological factors? You seem very knowledgeable and I like reading your posts. Your name is well suited for someone who is interested in pd's abd how they affect/impact crime. It's one of my fascinations too. If you find out anymore, please post, bump this thread.

  16. #191
    Senior Member ImBatman!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    Awww, thank you, that's very sweet! I do like cases that involve psychological factors and that aren't necessarily a clear cut case (were they abducted? did they start a new life? did they commit suicide?). I think human nature is fascinating and they 'why's' behind our behavior are so much more interesting than the behavior itself.

    I will most definitely post if I see/find out anything. Jump in on the conversation...it's interesting to get everyone's take on things. If this case interests you, you might also be interested in reading Maura Murray's case and Ray Gricar's case.

    Any thoughts on my murder/suicide theory? Of course I have no evidence or facts so really it is just a theory.
    "Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; They listen with the intent to reply." ~ anonymous
    "Keep calm and sing Soft Kitty"
    "it is what it is!"

  17. #192
    Senior Member Harlette's Avatar
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    hmm this is interesting but i don't think its as nefarious as the bloggers make it out to be. idk but i dont think the mkstay - brothers father - family had as much money as ppl thought that the family could use to hide themselves - it looks like the brother is in jail now for some kind of embezzlement and fraud - and i don't think joey mkstay made as much money as they have been saying - i sounds like either they mkstays got involved in some shady business that involved them going to mexico, or they were lured down by some sort of scam, maybe some thing medical or joey, though i lean more towards some thing illegal, thats the reason they would walk over because it would be much harder to prove they went, and its easier to bet back by walking if you are using fake id - which can be bought on the street any where this side of the border for a few hundred dollars, and what ever they were involed in went bad and they were killed.

    i just don't think if the were running away and found a new life, they would have left so much money in the bank account, and it seems they didn't know that much about the border if they had to google, so i bet some one was telling them how to get over, and prolly back w/ out being detected - plus i don;t think the joey would have left his other son w/ out a word, especially if he thought he was being abused

    sadly i think they were just dealing w/ the wrong pp, which is pretty easy to do in mexico, and it got them killed, it is not hard at all down there to kill a family and make sure its never found out

  18. #193
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Joey's dad, Patrick McStay, is going on a rampage again on his FB. This guy is a real nutter.


    https://www.facebook.com/groups/search4mcstays/


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  19. #194
    Senior Member Harlette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    Joey's dad, Patrick McStay, is going on a rampage again on his FB. This guy is a real nutter.


    https://www.facebook.com/groups/search4mcstays/
    he musta just made bail

  20. #195
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlette View Post
    he musta just made bail
    The guy is a complete nutter. He goes off on people for giving him a compliment. Always on the defense. Reminds me of another nutter, who I shall not name, who a lot of us are familiar with.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  21. #196
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    The whole family is/was so dysfunctional.

  22. #197
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    My copy of the mcstay book arrived. Can't wait to read!

  23. #198
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    Let us know what you think and if it's worth us reading it!
    I'm about 80 pages in. It's very poorly edited and published. Also a lot of the 'sources' are not very reliable.
    The author quotes email that the mcstays had written but just copies the body of text. No other details like dates/times/recipients are given. So it could be made up. But he includes the date/recipient email info for joeys business emails.

    The author really doesn't like mike mcstay and thinks he knows more than he lets on. A few things I've read that are interesting:

    - summer's self confessed 'best friend' McGyver had been helping them paint their house (while they sat back and didn't help). He had one day left of painting and summer texted him to postpone. And then they went missing.
    - summer had been told McGyver that she had planned a birthday party for one of the boys at chuck e cheese on the Saturday they went missing. The author couldn't find anyone who had been invited and no trace that the party was ever planned.
    - mike mcstay was asked to go and check on the family by Patrick. He said he was too busy and actually lied about going. When they actually did call the cops, the police failed to secure the house and car as a crime scene. Joey's mother went to the house and was found by McGyver to be frantically cleaning and looking for bank statements.
    - mike mcstay apparently also intercepted cheques that were payment for joeys work at his fountain business after he disappeared.

    Sorry for any typos - I'm phone posting
    Last edited by Olivia; 06-25-2013 at 02:25 PM. Reason: error fixed

  24. #199
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    Also you can tell the author thinks summer orchestrated the disappearance. I'm not up to what he thinks happened yet. But there's a section about her resentment of joeys son from the first marriage. She apparently resented his ex wife and having to care for the first son. But that goes against the CPS info we discussed where she tried to help joey get custody?

  25. #200
    Senior Member Harlette's Avatar
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    omg ty olivia for briefing us on that book!

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