this is ridiculous.
I just saw this thread. You guys are trying way too hard to be PC. I'm pretty sure that anyone that murders another person, let alone their own child shouldn't be allowed to go to the funeral. I can't believe anyone even argued about this.
[quote author=Natasha_XO link=topic=12099.msg743232#msg743232 date=1203959805]
this is ridiculous.
I just saw this thread. You guys are trying way too hard to be PC. I'm pretty sure that anyone that murders another person, let alone their own child shouldn't be allowed to go to the funeral. I can't believe anyone even argued about this.
[/quote]You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine, which draws on my experience with a mentally ill family member. I'll accept your views, as I would hope you would not tell me mine are "ridiculous" and those of someone who is "trying too hard" to be some certain way.
Originally Posted by bowieluva
I understand that your sister is mentally ill. I would hope you wouldn't feel that I am calling you or your opinion ridiculous. It was more of a general statement. Maybe I need to reword what I was thinking.
Think about how many trials where people use the mentally ill defense when really they aren't. I guess that's how I'm seeing this case. I don't think she should be allowed to go.
[quote author=tara12sk link=topic=12099.msg697155#msg697155 date=1200461925]
I don't know how much pain and suffering the mother's presence could cause HER family for a child that had been around for months. (I know that sounds callous, and I apologize, but I don't know how else to say it.)
[/quote]
I just really don't think we are going to agree on this. I think a child has an INCREDIBLE impact on any family, regardless of how long they have been around. I guess I tend to empathize with the members of the family that didn't drown their baby. Why make the grieving process harder on them?
I guess I'm a bit defensive, Millie isn't even 3 months old, does that mean her life is of less value?
The mother should be allowed a small slot of private time with her child to say goodbye, nothing more, nothing less.
[quote author=Natasha_XO link=topic=12099.msg743242#msg743242 date=1203960370]
I understand that your sister is mentally ill. I would hope you wouldn't feel that I am calling you or your opinion ridiculous. It was more of a general statement. Maybe I need to reword what I was thinking.
Think about how many trials where people use the mentally ill defense when really they aren't. I guess that's how I'm seeing this case. I don't think she should be allowed to go.
[/quote]Okay, I get that. People do use the mentally ill defense when they aren't, but that doesn't mean that no one SHOULD use it. Also, I don't think it's common for those who pretend to, to get off.
I wonder if this individual's request turned out. Was it posted?
[quote author=tara12sk link=topic=12099.msg743251#msg743251 date=1203960776]
Okay, I get that. People do use the mentally ill defense when they aren't, but that doesn't mean that no one SHOULD use it. Also, I don't think it's common for those who pretend to, to get off.
I wonder if this individual's request turned out. Was it posted?
[/quote]
I agree. But I do think it's pretty common for people to pretend and get off. At least it seems that way to me.
I'm not sure if the request went through or not.
[quote author=Natasha_XO link=topic=12099.msg743249#msg743249 date=1203960647]
I just really don't think we are going to agree on this. I think a child has an INCREDIBLE impact on any family, regardless of how long they have been around. I guess I tend to empathize with the members of the family that didn't drown their baby. Why make the grieving process harder on them?
I guess I'm a bit defensive, Millie isn't even 3 months old, does that mean her life is of less value?
The mother should be allowed a small slot of private time with her child to say goodbye, nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]I just refuse to make assumptions when I don't know the whole story. What if the extended family had never even met the baby?
Of course the baby's life isn't of less value. And prohibiting her mentally ill mother from attending doesn't automatically say, "Wow, her [the baby's] life had a lot of value."
[quote author=tara12sk link=topic=12099.msg743253#msg743253 date=1203960879]
I just refuse to make assumptions when I don't know the whole story. What if the extended family had never even met the baby?
Of course the baby's life isn't of less value. And prohibiting her mentally ill mother from attending doesn't automatically say, "Wow, her life had a lot of value."
[/quote]
oh come on now, I realize this. You refuse to make assumptions, but I feel like you ARE making assumptions, that the family wasn't close to the child, you are assuming that the family wasn't close to this baby. My family sees millie 3 or 4 times a week. We try to drive up to adrien's parents' house at least once every other week and spend adrien's days off there. They have a lot of contact with her. Maybe I'm just being biased.
[quote author=Natasha_XO link=topic=12099.msg743255#msg743255 date=1203961056]
oh come on now, I realize this. You refuse to make assumptions, but I feel like you ARE making assumptions, that the family wasn't close to the child, you are assuming that the family wasn't close to this baby. My family sees millie 3 or 4 times a week. We try to drive up to adrien's parents' house at least once every other week and spend adrien's days off there. They have a lot of contact with her. Maybe I'm just being biased.
[/quote]How am I making assumptions when I said, I don't know the situation, WHAT IF the extended family didn't even know the baby?
Also, I'm honestly interested what's led you to believe that people get off for falsely pulling the insanity card.
:shrugs:
I just feel like you are too quick to let this woman attend the funeral, as if it has no affect on the remaining family.
It's like you are "assuming" that the family wasn't close to this child.
I just think that a lot of people that kill their family members, children, partner, and what have you, pull the insanity card. A lot of them have great attorneys and get off.
I also feel like if this were a man, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Wow. I'm not sure I've ever been accused of trying to be PC before.
I guess I have a little more compassion (?) respect(?) for a mother's rights to her own children.
She murdered her child, and that it wrong on so many levels. I simply don't see any sense in refusing her the opportunity to pay final respects. She certainly can't hurt her child any more. If it is a private viewing, she won't be hurting anyone else. The fact that she ASKED to go reveals that she feels she has unfinished business (possibly attempting to make amends? To grasp the reality of her atrocious actions?). She can't take back what she did, and should be punished to the full extent of the law. But I see no harm in letting a mother see the child she has miserably failed for a last time, whatever her intentions. NOT letting her would likely cause more problems.
[quote author=Natasha_XO link=topic=12099.msg743266#msg743266 date=1203961520]
:shrugs:
I just feel like you are too quick to let this woman attend the funeral, as if it has no affect on the remaining family.
It's like you are "assuming" that the family wasn't close to this child.
I just think that a lot of people that kill their family members, children, partner, and what have you, pull the insanity card. A lot of them have great attorneys and get off.
I also feel like if this were a man, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
[/quote]Well, ideally, I'd want an inquest and extensive background check to see if she's for real or not. However, the funeral was probably less than a week after, therefore not a lot of time to do so. Better to have her go and not be deemed insane than be denied and then deemed insane. That's my opinion.
I don't like to think of the death of any child, ever. But I don't think it's fair to compare our situations to those who are severely mentally ill, at least possibly.
What are some examples of people have gotten off on the insanity defense and then it was proved that they were lying?
[quote author=Fleta link=topic=12099.msg743276#msg743276 date=1203962021]
Wow. I'm not sure I've ever been accused of trying to be PC before.
I guess I have a little more compassion (?) respect(?) for a mother's rights to her own children.
She murdered her child, and that it wrong on so many levels. I simply don't see any sense in refusing her the opportunity to pay final respects. She certainly can't hurt her child any more. If it is a private viewing, she won't be hurting anyone else. The fact that she ASKED to go reveals that she feels she has unfinished business (possibly attempting to make amends? To grasp the reality of her atrocious actions?). She can't take back what she did, and should be punished to the full extent of the law. But I see no harm in letting a mother see the child she has miserably failed for a last time, whatever her intentions. NOT letting her would likely cause more problems.
[/quote]
I don't have any problem with her being allowed a private viewing. You're right. She can't hurt her child anymore. But she can hurt other family members by attending the funeral.
[quote author=tara12sk link=topic=12099.msg743278#msg743278 date=1203962049]
Well, ideally, I'd want an inquest and extensive background check to see if she's for real or not. However, the funeral was probably less than a week after, therefore not a lot of time to do so. Better to have her go and not be deemed insane than be denied and then deemed insane. That's my opinion.
I don't like to think of the death of any child, ever. But I don't think it's fair to compare our situations to those who are severely mentally ill, at least possibly.
What are some examples of people have gotten off on the insanity defense and then it was proved that they were lying?
[/quote]
I never looked at it like that, so I definitely see where you are coming from now.
As for examples, it's never been proved. It's just an opinion.
[quote author=Natasha_XO link=topic=12099.msg743266#msg743266 date=1203961520]
I also feel like if this were a man, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
[/quote]
I completely agree with that. I think if a father made this request, more people would be leaning towards not allowing him to attend.
I do find it hard to believe that she is mentally competent. I find it much more probable that someone who (allegedly) kills their child this way, is mentally insane.
Suzanne Knight (21) brutally raped and devoured 3 toddlers while on a meth binge before hanging herself Marky69: If those toddlers didnt want to be eaten then they shouldnt of looked so god damned delicious. RIP Suzanne
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