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Thread: Tate Myre (16), Hana St. Juliana (14), Justin Shilling (17) & Madisyn Baldwin (17) killed in school shooting in Oxford Michigan

  1. #51
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    My parents were sued (and the victim's family won) because my brother used my dad's gun, and his gun was even locked up.
    Interesting. And this was Texas? I think gun owners should be responsible, especially parents whose minor children use their guns...
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    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
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  2. #52
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    Interesting. And this was Texas? I think gun owners should be responsible, especially parents whose minor children use their guns...
    This. End of story. You want to be "responsible gun owners" then be responsible. And be held responsible when you aren't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller22 View Post
    I thought the exact same thing. Poor Brennen Tammons.
    Oh well, back to gum.
    ....or exchanging Puke's wang for spicy nuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    I know, right? What the fuck, puke? Willing to take in Boston, an Irish dude and like, 17 dogs but not Ron? poor Ron.

  3. #53
    Romulus Angiebla's Avatar
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    I wonder how extensively the parents knew of their son's mental illness? Why didnt they take him home that day that the school recommended it? Were they in denial or just shitty parents?

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  4. #54
    Romulus Angiebla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    My parents were sued (and the victim's family won) because my brother used my dad's gun, and his gun was even locked up.
    How much money did they have to fork over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73 View Post
    Someone tried to make a racist point about this in a Facebook thread saying, " so should the parents be charged if there's a shooting in Chicago " ( obviously pointed at POC).

    My response was, "If the gun was registered to them and not secured, ABSOLUTELY".

    Their response was, " well, what if it was a car ".

    Honestly. STOP reaching at straws to try to make these parents less responsible. I've been saying for EONS that the owners of the guns should be charged and held responsible. No difference with race. No difference with political affiliation.

    The same people that cry, " Why do they always make it about race " are the ones making it all about race.

    Fuck. You.
    Dont get band again

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  5. #55
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    How much money did they have to fork over?



    Dont get band again
    Trying not to, but people are SO FUCKING STUPID!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller22 View Post
    I thought the exact same thing. Poor Brennen Tammons.
    Oh well, back to gum.
    ....or exchanging Puke's wang for spicy nuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    I know, right? What the fuck, puke? Willing to take in Boston, an Irish dude and like, 17 dogs but not Ron? poor Ron.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    Interesting. And this was Texas? I think gun owners should be responsible, especially parents whose minor children use their guns...
    Yes. DEEP red west Texas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    I wonder how extensively the parents knew of their son's mental illness? Why didnt they take him home that day that the school recommended it? Were they in denial or just shitty parents?
    Does it really matter? It is pretty much the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    How much money did they have to fork over?

    $100k, but that was 28 years ago. Their home insurance ended up paying it. I never really understood how it covered it, but it did.
    Last edited by raisedbywolves; 12-05-2021 at 01:36 AM.

  7. #57
    Senior Member jennafyre's Avatar
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    I have read a few times that Michigan does NOT have a law that requires firearms to be locked/secured. Maybe after this Michigan will consider changing their state law to require gun owners to be more responsible because it is obvious (at least these parents/gun owners) that it is not common practice just to be safe.

    Also, I am curious if the drawing he made was being interpreted as him asking for help and that he was at risk of suicide, not mass shooting. That would make sense then for the school to ask parents to have him in counselling within 48 hours and thinking he would at least be safe (from hurting himself) if he was in class rather than (possibly) home alone?

  8. #58
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    I wonder how extensively the parents knew of their son's mental illness? Why didnt they take him home that day that the school recommended it? Were they in denial or just shitty parents?
    Maybe it's an "and" not an or. But based on the fact that they didn't stick around to support their son, advocate for him to get help? Shitty parents, terrible human beings. NUTJOBS.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
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  9. #59
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    Yes. DEEP red west Texas.



    Does it really matter? It is pretty much the same thing.



    $100k, but that was 28 years ago. Their home insurance ended up paying it. I never really understood how it covered it, but it did.
    I've got to say, I'm kind of amazed by that. Your parent's son wasn't a minor child who could be assumed to be under his parents care, right? Or am I misremembering?
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
    Quote Originally Posted by nestlequikie View Post
    Why on earth would I smite you when I can ban you?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    I've got to say, I'm kind of amazed by that. Your parent's son wasn't a minor child who could be assumed to be under his parents care, right? Or am I misremembering?
    Yeah, he was only 14.

  11. #61
    Senior Member KimTisha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73 View Post
    They want to make it all about race so badly, then let's go there:

    How many school shootings are carried out by Black People versus White.


    I'll wait........



    Yeah, let's talk about school shootings and race. LETS.
    Sounds like your FB people are jackholes (why are they your friends???), but...

    OK, I'll bite. As a federal employee, we were required to crunch numbers monthly/quarterly. I'm doing here what I was required to do when I worked for Uncle Sam, so don't shoot the messenger - it's a natural reaction when I see statistics.

    First, mass shooting events are generally deemed to be incidents in which four or more people are shot and/or killed in a single incident. The FBI has a definition for a mass murderer (four or more people KILLED in a single incident NOT including the shooter), but none for "mass shooting" where some of the victims don't die. In 2013, Congress defined "mass killing" as three or more people dead, but the FBI doesn't appear to have followed suit. Mass murder differs from spree killings by the number of locations (Pulse Nightclub vs DC Sniper).

    Mass shooting events are intentionally public. The shooter rarely wants to remain anonymous and often goes out in a blaze of glory. We rarely have a mass shooting event where the perpetrator is unknown or is wrongfully convicted. I don't know where your numbers came from, but the 12 "unknown/unclear" events in your list are most likely unsolved incidents (family anihilators, drive-by shootings, etc.). The numbers you posted are ALL mass shootings, not just school shootings. If we were to look only at mass school shooting events, I believe the statistics would indicate white males commit the vast majority of those crimes. If we were to look at incidents of school shootings that don't meet the criteria of "mass shooting," I believe the statistics would indicate black males commit the vast majority of those crimes. At least that was the case the last time I did a deep dive into those numbers with the Dept of Education. That was around 2013(?), Arne Duncan was Secretary. Eight additional years of data may change that, but I doubt it.

    However.... you can't look at raw numbers like this without looking at the bigger picture, because according to the numbers you posted, blacks disproportionately committed more mass shootings than other races as reflected below. The reasons for this are complex and varied, but some of it can be attributed to the definition of mass shooting itself (and that's why I went through all that explanation up there).

    White (60% of the population) - committed 53% of the shootings
    Black (12% of the population) - committed 17% of the shootings
    Hispanic (18.5% of the population) - committed 8% of the shootings
    Asian (6% of the population) - committed 5% of the shootings
    Native American (2% of the population) - committed 2% of the shootings

    In a perfect world, we would analyze these numbers to determine how we can help communities disproportionately affected and/or improve the reporting system; but this isn't a perfect world, so mostly we just don't talk about it at all. Sad.
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  12. #62
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    Yeah, he was only 14.
    Wow. I didn't realize that.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
    Quote Originally Posted by nestlequikie View Post
    Why on earth would I smite you when I can ban you?

  13. #63
    Kool-Aid Drinker curiouscat's Avatar
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    On my cell.
    https://www.newsweek.com/oxford-high...r-says-1656451
    This article is basically saying that school officials may be charged for letting Ethan stay on campus.
    Next, let's charge all the students even the dead ones.
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    "he had Skittles so he could have made drugs".
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  14. #64
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Long article about school shooters and parental involvement

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md...tOMsCSp8gqAgT0
    Many parents of school shooters ignore glaring warning signs. This one didn?t.
    When Catherine O?Connor discovered her grandson was planning an attack, she did what few parents do: reported a child she loved to police
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
    Quote Originally Posted by nestlequikie View Post
    Why on earth would I smite you when I can ban you?

  15. #65
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    I pass this diner every day on the way to the high school.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcbyC1NEmHc

  16. #66
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bella View Post
    I pass this diner every day on the way to the high school.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcbyC1NEmHc
    Was he drunk? Wtf
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller22 View Post
    I thought the exact same thing. Poor Brennen Tammons.
    Oh well, back to gum.
    ....or exchanging Puke's wang for spicy nuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    I know, right? What the fuck, puke? Willing to take in Boston, an Irish dude and like, 17 dogs but not Ron? poor Ron.

  17. #67
    Member Daisychain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    On my cell.
    https://www.newsweek.com/oxford-high...r-says-1656451
    This article is basically saying that school officials may be charged for letting Ethan stay on campus.
    Next, let's charge all the students even the dead ones.
    Man, this is bullshit. I understand that this community is in pain and wants someone to blame, but both those educators reacted immediately on consecutive days, they tried to get the parents to take him home that day. It was the parents who were unresponsive and neglectful, not the school...how the fuck were they supposed to know his dad just bought him a brand new sig sauer? They were doing what they thought was right for this kid based on the information they had at the time. The kind of pain/illness/hatred/whatever that was plaguing this boy does not appear overnight. I read that he had no disciplinary issues on record until the day before, if this is true he either hid it really well or was completely neglected by his parents and fell through the cracks at school. It happens. But the prosecution of schools/educators would likely be the type of thing that might set an example or appease a crowd, but backfire down the line when schools are scared to make high pressure decisions and people's kids are left in the lurch.

  18. #68
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    https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/24/us/mi...nts/index.html

    Michigan shooting suspect's parents willfully disregarded signs that their son was a threat, prosecutors say

    Prosecutors in a filing say the parents of alleged Oxford High School shooter Ethan Crumbley are at a "greater risk of flight" now than when they were arraigned on involuntary manslaughter charges earlier this month and allege the couple "willfully ignored the needs and well-being of their son and the threat he posed to others."
    The filing was obtained by CNN affiliate WDIV. CNN is attempting to obtain the filing as well.

    Ethan Crumbley, 15, has been charged as an adult in the November 30 shooting at Oxford High School in Michigan that left four students dead. The shooting also left seven others -- six students and a teacher -- injured.

    Crumbley faces one count of terrorism causing death, four counts of first-degree murder, seven counts of assault with intent to murder and 12 counts of possession of a firearm during the commission of a felony. At arraignment the judge entered a plea of not guilty per a request from Crumbley's attorney.

    James and Jennifer Crumbley were arrested on four counts each of involuntary manslaughter and have pleaded not guilty.

    "Defendants were in a better position than anyone else in the world to prevent this tragedy, but they failed to do so," the filing states.
    CNN has contacted attorneys for the couple for comment.

    Prosecutors filed the motion in response to the Crumbleys' request for modified bond and detailed how the couple is more than $11,000 behind on their house payments, have sold their horses and have "already shown that they will flee if they get the opportunity" and detailed that the parents had four cell phones at the time of their arrest and "attempted to destroy one of the phones."
    The filing alleges that when the Crumbleys left their son's school on November 30, over an hour before the shooting began, they knew their son was depressed and "fascinated with guns."

    The filing details Ethan Crumbley's state of mind in the six months before the shooting, saying his parents were aware that he was "sadder than usual," that his only friend had moved away, and that he was sending his mother disturbing texts about his state of mind.

    Prosecutors allege that while their son was struggling, his parents spent several hours a night, three to four nights a week, at a barn caring for their horses and that one of the parents was having extramarital affairs.

    The filing emphasizes the defendants were focused on their "own issues," including "substance abuse issues."

    Prosecutors also allege that Ethan Crumbley had been torturing animals and kept a "baby bird's head in a jar on his bedroom floor."
    "Instead of paying attention to their son and getting him help, they bought him a gun," the filing states.

    Prosecutors also allege in the filing that after the shooting the Crumbleys retained attorneys for themselves but not their son and that Jennifer Crumbley said to a co-worker and in a text that "her son's destiny is done and she has to take care of herself."

    Prosecutors accuse the Crumbleys of "willful disregard" of the clear evidence that their son posed a serious risk to other students on the day of the shooting and argue that all the parents had to do was tell the school they'd recently purchased a gun for him, ask him where the gun was, open his backpack "or just take him home."

    Prosecutors said their case against the couple is strong and "even stronger" than it was when they were arraigned.

    The filing attached two versions of a drawing allegedly made by Ethan Crumbley on a geometry test from the day of the shooting that included a picture of a gun and the words, "The thoughts won't stop help me." Prosecutors allege Crumbley made "modifications" to the drawing after it was discovered.

    "In school shootings, it is not uncommon to find evidence of intent and planning after the shooting. What is novel about this case is the Defendants were made aware, in graphic form, of the serious risk posed by their son prior to the shooting," the filing states.

    A teacher found the drawing on Crumbley's desk, according to prosecutors. That led school officials to hold a meeting with Crumbley and his parents, who were instructed to help provide counseling for their son within 48 hours, school officials have said.

    The parents declined to take their son out of school that day and he was allowed to return to the classroom, according to prosecutors.

    Oxford Community Schools Superintendent Tim Throne has said that because the suspect had no prior disciplinary actions on his record, school counselors decided to allow him to return to class, rather than send him to what they thought would be an empty home.

  19. #69
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    That's an understatement. From the outside looking in, it's as if they encouraged it. They were obviously aware that it was going to happen and they supplied the murder weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller22 View Post
    I thought the exact same thing. Poor Brennen Tammons.
    Oh well, back to gum.
    ....or exchanging Puke's wang for spicy nuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    I know, right? What the fuck, puke? Willing to take in Boston, an Irish dude and like, 17 dogs but not Ron? poor Ron.

  20. #70
    Romulus Angiebla's Avatar
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    Wow these parents did have their heads up to their own asses. It like they literally didnt care about their son. If he had been depressed, werent they worried he would off himself if they gave him a gun? I wonder if they knew he was torturing animals.

    Im going back and forth between thinking this kid was a sociopath or had legit mental health issues. The writing of "Help the thoughts wont stop" is literally a cry for help.

    I usually dont get this mad at parents of murders but fuck, these guys suck.

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  21. #71
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    I wonder if they bought him the gun hoping he would kill himself. The money trouble, ignoring a struggling kid in order to care for horses, only worrying about themselves after he was arrested and some of the other details coming out make it sound like they didn't want to be bothered with being parents.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmIAnnoying View Post
    I wonder if they bought him the gun hoping he would kill himself. The money trouble, ignoring a struggling kid in order to care for horses, only worrying about themselves after he was arrested and some of the other details coming out make it sound like they didn't want to be bothered with being parents.
    I wondered that too.

  23. #73
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    I wondered that too.
    Me, three.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
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  24. #74
    Member Daisychain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    Me, three.
    Holy shit this did not occur to me (which is odd lol) but this makes me feel even more sure that these parents sealed their child's and the fates of his victims. I honestly felt bad for the kid (not over his victims) but in the beginning when we knew nothing I knew that the kid must have been in unendurable pain because that stuff doesn't come out of nowhere, he was probably screaming for help and I know how that feels. (Minus the homicidal ideation!) But with the other bits of evidence coming out it is just so much of a tragedy. For everyone, but most of all the four victims and yes even Ethan because he needed help and he deserved it too, before a horse. And also that shit was completely preventable. Japan and Germany and Britain have no gun violence because they have no guns. (Yeah yeah I know they are allowed to own them but their laws are incredibly strict)

  25. #75
    Scoopski Potatoes Nic B's Avatar
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    If I were his mom, I would be worried that by giving him a gun, he would shoot ME.


    Quote Originally Posted by marakisses View Post
    yes i said i will leave it under you storage he said cuddle with me i said shut up it over??? what am i doing wrong??

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