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Thread: Jacob and Sarah (2 & 3) missing, but paranoid schizophrenic mother Catherine Hoggle says they are safe

  1. #101
    Senior Member Queena's Avatar
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    I thought that did that last month. That should've been one of the first things that the police did, let her take them to the babies.

  2. #102
    Senior Member PeaceBeWithMe's Avatar
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    The more I dwell on this, the more pissed off I get.

    She should be allowed to "show" the cops where the kids are. I mean, fuck, who knows? She might very well lead them to the bodies, being that she is as delusional as she is.

    That poor father should not have to live in agony every day.

  3. #103
    Moderator bowieluva's Avatar
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    Didn't they already do this and she took them on a wild goose chase?

  4. #104
    Senior Member TupeloHoney's Avatar
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    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...175_story.html

    Maryland will not challenge incompetence opinion in missing-toddlers case

    (Jan. 4, 2015) Montgomery County prosecutors will not challenge a recent psychiatric opinion that Catherine Hoggle -- the mother of two young children who have been missing since September -- is mentally incompetent to stand trial.

    Hoggle had been set to go on trial Monday on misdemeanor charges related to the children's disappearance. But the proceedings have been postponed until at least February because of concerns that Hoggle cannot understand her surroundings well enough.

    Hoggle, 28, has a history of paranoid schizophrenia and is being detained in a maximum-security state psychiatric hospital. Prosecutors say that with proper treatment, she could participate in court proceedings.

    "She's responded to regimens of medication in the past," said Montgomery State?s Attorney John McCarthy. "There's no reason that will not occur again."

    Hoggle's two youngest children, Jacob and Sarah, were 2 and 3 years old, respectively, when they vanished in early September. They were last seen with their mother, who has refused to say where they are and was charged with neglect and other counts, according to arrest records.

    Detectives, who fear that the children are dead, are building a homicide case against Hoggle.

    Family members of the missing children struggled through the holidays but continue to hold out hope that they are alive. They say they believe that Hoggle may have met someone who persuaded her to hand over the children, at least temporarily, and that Hoggle believed that she was doing what was best for Jacob and Sarah.

    "I keep going with the confidence that someone has them," Lindsey Hoggle, Catherine's mother, said Friday.

    She and other family members have spoken over the telephone with Catherine Hoggle, who is at Maryland's Clifton T. Perkins Hospital Center in Howard County. It was there that an evaluating psychiatrist concluded that she was incompetent to stand trial.

    McCarthy said his office will file legal papers Monday asking District Court Judge Eugene Wolfe to make an official finding in writing that adopts the psychiatrist's incompetence opinion. He said that would help ensure that doctors at Perkins are working to "restore" Hoggle to legal competence.

    David Felsen, Hoggle's attorney, has said for months that his client's underlying psychiatric problems have interfered with her ability to communicate with everyone, including detectives who have interviewed her -- at Montgomery police headquarters and at Perkins.

    "Her condition is extremely complicated," Felsen said. "We have been concerned about competency from the beginning."

    In Maryland, mental health intersects with criminal proceedings in two main ways. Competence is the first.

    The second is a more familiar concept -- the insanity defense. In Maryland, it is known as "not criminally responsible." It is invoked when, at the time of an offense, a person's mental illness prevented him or her from understanding that he or she was committing a crime. That issue has not been addressed in hearings in the Hoggle case.
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    I will out think the fucking pants off of you and you would thank me for helping you out of them.

  5. #105
    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    i'm still not understanding why they didn't put her back on her meds?
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  6. #106
    Moderator bowieluva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    i'm still not understanding why they didn't put her back on her meds?
    Well, they say her situation is complicated. Medication is different for all people and it's possible that her condition is so severe that there is no middle ground between her being crazy and drugging her into oblivion so that she's a drooling object.

    Being put back on meds doesn't mean she will behave rationally at all. They might 'calm' her, but severe schizophrenics don't just pop back to normal people when medicated.

  7. #107
    Senior Member Kelly-Jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Well, they say her situation is complicated. Medication is different for all people and it's possible that her condition is so severe that there is no middle ground between her being crazy and drugging her into oblivion so that she's a drooling object.

    Being put back on meds doesn't mean she will behave rationally at all. They might 'calm' her, but severe schizophrenics don't just pop back to normal people when medicated.
    100% bowie, even if Medication will work it can take months for it to reach levels in her system for it them be effective.

  8. #108
    I know this is old and I'm new so I'll throw out a quick "Hey guys, I'm new here. Read some but haven't really posted." First off, I fear this lady will end up being like Andrea Yates. She too thought she was doing something "good" for her children by preventing them from the evils they would commit were they to get older and continue on in life. If some good samaritan was taking care of these kids, they'd have come forward early on.

    Furthermore, I personally see both sides of the mentally ill parents argument. My grandmother, whom I never got to meet due to suicide, was quite severely disturbed throughout my mother's childhood. There were many hard times she had to see her mother hospitalized and zombified on meds. But at the same time, she adored her mother and cherishes the good times she had with her like no other. She learned everything she knows from her mother and the majority of the time it wasn't so rough and she was an amazing person. I'm heartbroken I never got the chance to meet her. She had her episodes and one did endanger the whole family at one point, my mom has a hard time even 40 years later accepting her actions that evening. It wasn't easy but she wouldn't have traded her for the world. She had a better relationship with her by far than she did with her perfectly sound father.

    I also will add that I myself have some issues with bi-polar 1. I wouldn't want to bring a child into my situation until I learn to manage it better, it's something I'm working on. It's not so easy to rehabilitate all conditions but as stated previously by other posters, with some support most can be managed. I think it's definitely a good thing to have a mentally sound parent around as well in case things escalate. There's usually a gradual increase, someone doesn't usually jump from being perfect for years to homicidal maniac overnight. There are usually going to be some changes observed and I'm surprised that no such thing is mentioned in this case. I'd think she'd already been off her meds before perpetrating the crime and there might have been something to observe. I could be wrong but you usually notice something is off.

  9. #109
    Moderator Bewitchingstorm's Avatar
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    When the family voices their concerns of her working the system (they know her better than anyone), chick is working the system.

  10. #110
    Senior Member aphaziak's Avatar
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    This story makes me so angry and so sad. I don't think her parents would come out and say such things about their daughter if they didn't know her and were worried she would be let out at some point to cause more harm to herself or others....

    What I'm honestly wondering is if there were any signs or any past fallouts like this... I'm in *no* way blaming the father, just have to wonder if this is something that came out of the blue or if there were several incidents right before this. Just kind of makes me wonder how long she was off the meds prior to taking the children, or if it was something that was going on a while and he just didn't know or notice...

    Latest articles I could find, several videos at link:

    CATHERINE HOGGLE APPEARS IN ROCKVILLE COURTROOM, JUDGE SETS NEW HEARING DATE (VIDEOS)

    6/28/16

    http://www.mymcmedia.org/catherine-h...-hearing-date/

    With her long hair pulled back and wearing eyeglasses, a handcuffed Catherine Hoggle was brought inside a Rockville district courtroom on June 28th for a status hearing in the case of her missing children, Sarah and Jacob.

    She glanced back towards her mother who was sitting in the third row at least once during the brief hearing but never spoke to the judge.

    It?s been almost two years since her children, Sarah and Jacob Hoggle disappeared from their Clarksburg home in Sept. of 2014. Catherine Hoggle is the last known person to have seen them, and she is charged with neglect, obstruction and hindering in the case.

    Since she was taken into police custody on those charges, Hoggle has been hospitalized at Clifton T. Perkins state hospital in Jessup where she is undergoing treatment for mental health issues.

    Judge Eugene Wolfe told prosecutors and defense attorneys that the latest doctor report indicates that Hoggle remains incompetent to stand trial on the charges but he noted that doctors believe her competency can be restored.

    Wolfe set a new court status hearing for Sept. 27.

    Outside the courtroom, Catherine?s mother, Lindsey Hoggle, described the outcome as yet another ?delay.?

    ?This is just unacceptable that we continue not to have Catherine competent,? she said.

    Without providing details, Hoggle?s defense attorney David Felsen said the latest medical report from the state hospital indicates that there had not been a substantial change in Hoggle?s condition. ?What we are dealing with are profound mental health issues here, so things change over the course of time. There may be a period of time when things are better and a period of time when things are worse and I think that is reflected in the report.?

    According to Felsen, the doctors deal with Hoggle on a daily basis so if her competency is restored, before her next court date, the doctors are required to report that information to the court and a new hearing would be held to set a trial date.

    When asked if Hoggle is improving, Felsen said he could not say. ?I am not a doctor, I think there are things that have been consistent since her original detention in this case and there are things that have changed but I certainly don?t have the expertise to opine on whether she is getting better or worse. I leave that to the good doctors at Perkins.?

    As for her treatment, Felsen said the doctors have tried different combinations of medications and therapies in hopes of restoring competency.

    ?Before anyone can be tried in the United States they have to be competent,? said Felsen. ?It doesn?t matter what the charge is. We are not even at square one.?

    Prosecutors declined to comment on the status of their case after the hearing.

    Troy Turner, the father of Sarah and Jacob, was not in court, today, but his mother, Debbie Beckward was. She carried signs with pictures of her missing grandchildren that read, ?Justice for Sarah and Jacob,? and she told reporters that she has asked the FBI to get involved in the case.

    When asked if she had a message for her daughter, Lindsey Hoggle, said: ?I?ve never gave up on her, and not going to give up on her, and finding out the truth, and I am not giving up on Sarah and Jacob, either. So, I am gonna continue the pressure, continue what needs to be done until the answers are found.
    And this sad article about the dad still having hope to find his children (from July):

    http://www.your4state.com/news/i-270...ssing-children

    "She's told me herself that she's being advised to remain incompetent, and she explained the system- and right now as long as she does it ?she's going to continue to be a patient and be protected more so than my children - she has more rights than my kids have,? said Turner.
    Last edited by aphaziak; 08-02-2016 at 04:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZoMyGoddess! View Post
    maybe when the check comes next time, just throw your dick on the table and be like "if you got the check, i got dessert"

  11. #111
    Senior Member Deviant Toaster's Avatar
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    I wish for the sake of the father, that they would find the children or their remains. I am sure the family knows her better than others, but it doesn't surprise me that she has been told to remain incompetent, she may not even realize how incompetent she actually is. Standing trial is different than talking with family so they may see her as fine at this point. Then again the lawyer may just be really good at his job and knows she is going down either way and it would be better to keep her in a hospital rather than a prison.

  12. #112
    Senior Member daisylane's Avatar
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    I hadn't read this one until now.. WTF!!! Defs feeling the Yates feels, except the Husband is very different here (it seems) - this poor man.
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    gangsta rap does not help the youth
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    DONT MAKE ME FUCK YOUR BITCH THAT PUSSY POPPIN

  13. #113
    Senior Member aphaziak's Avatar
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    I can't even imagine being the father at this point. So much time has passed and it seems like no progress has been made for him to get some answers. I mean, what are the chances they are still living after all this time? Chances are they're gone, and he has every right to get information on what the hell went down.

    I get it's not that clear cut or simple, but ugh. Frustrating as all hell.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZoMyGoddess! View Post
    maybe when the check comes next time, just throw your dick on the table and be like "if you got the check, i got dessert"

  14. #114
    Moderator bowieluva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daisylane View Post
    I hadn't read this one until now.. WTF!!! Defs feeling the Yates feels, except the Husband is very different here (it seems) - this poor man.
    There's like absolutely no common ground here with Andrea Yates. Andrea Yates suffered from severe PPD and was under the thumb of an abusive husband who essentially used her as a brood mare, and when she went to ask for help from multiple people, they all failed her. This woman is a severely paranoid schizophrenic who lives in a world constructed out of terrifying delusions. Schizophrenia can unfortunately present itself very randomly and unexpectedly, and it can escalate quickly.

  15. #115
    Senior Member daisylane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    There's like absolutely no common ground here with Andrea Yates. Andrea Yates suffered from severe PPD and was under the thumb of an abusive husband who essentially used her as a brood mare, and when she went to ask for help from multiple people, they all failed her. This woman is a severely paranoid schizophrenic who lives in a world constructed out of terrifying delusions. Schizophrenia can unfortunately present itself very randomly and unexpectedly, and it can escalate quickly.
    Yates had delusions though of grandeur/her paranoia and thought processes around 'god' (delusions) were also heavily documented and not just put down to PPD, she also had psychosis.

    As you said Schizophrenia can present itself in a multitude of different ways, which means it can sometimes mimic symptoms of psychosis, which was all I was likening this to.

    And what you you replied to, I said THIS husband is VERY different, meaning 'not the same' as Yates husband.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
    gangsta rap does not help the youth
    Quote Originally Posted by bermstalker View Post
    DONT MAKE ME FUCK YOUR BITCH THAT PUSSY POPPIN

  16. #116
    Senior Member queenaevadamthng's Avatar
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    Too bad they can't strap her ass down and adminster Sodium Pentothal to possibly get some answers. If her own mama and other family members are telling the courts the girl is manipulative, someone should listen.

    Why of course she wants to lounge around in a mental ward taking yoga. Who the hell wants to stand in prison a chow line fighting Large Marge and Big Bertha for her dried out piece of cornbread? What's nervy about this woman is she is kinda gloating and bragging about learning how to play the system.


    "Theoretical physics can prove that an elephant can hang from a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy. But use your eyes, your common sense".... JIM GARRISON

  17. #117
    Moderator bowieluva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by queenaevadamthng View Post
    Too bad they can't strap her ass down and adminster Sodium Pentothal to possibly get some answers. If her own mama and other family members are telling the courts the girl is manipulative, someone should listen.

    Why of course she wants to lounge around in a mental ward taking yoga. Who the hell wants to stand in prison a chow line fighting Large Marge and Big Bertha for her dried out piece of cornbread? What's nervy about this woman is she is kinda gloating and bragging about learning how to play the system.
    That does not work on a severely delusional, schizophrenic person.

  18. #118
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    After two of his young children vanished, Troy Turner often found himself in Arora Hills Local Park, where they used to play.

    "There are nights when I wind up pulling in here at three in the morning," he said last September. "When I can't sleep at night, I just get out of bed, drive up here, sit here and think."

    Wednesday marks two years since 2-year-old Jacob Hoggle was last seen. Jacob's big sister, 3-year-old Sarah, went missing the following day.

    Their mother, Catherine Hoggle, is believed to be the last person to have seen them. Hoggle, who had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia before the children went missing, remains in a maximum-security psychiatric hospital.

    She told authorities she left the children with a friend, but has never given details of their whereabouts.

    Montgomery County Police have said they believe Sarah and Jacob are dead.

    Timeline of Events as Jacob, Sarah Went Missing
    On the afternoon of Sept. 7, 2014, Catherine Hoggle's father drove her and the children to her mother's home in Gaithersburg.
    That was the last place anyone saw two-year-old Jacob.
    During their visit, Hoggle borrowed her father's car, a gray 2012 Nissan Rogue, and told her parents she was taking Jacob to get pizza.
    Three hours later, she returned without her son or any food, telling her parents she'd dropped off Jacob at a playmate's house. She then went back to her own home with Sarah.
    Police have said that Turner, who worked nights, never knew that Jacob hadn't returned home from his grandmother's house. Police later determined that Jacob had never been at a friend's home.
    Early the next morning, Sept. 8, 2014, Hoggle left home with Sarah, telling Turner that she was dropping off the little girl at a daycare center.
    Turner took their third child to the bus stop. Hoggle returned more than two hours later and told Turner that she'd taken both Jacob and Sarah to the unknown daycare.
    But when he asked her about picking up their children, Hoggle would not tell him where they were.
    Turner decided to go to the police for help, but on the way, the couple stopped at a Chick-fil-A in Germantown, where Hoggle slipped out of the restaurant unnoticed. Turner called police.
    Police said a K9 unit tracked her to the area of the Germantown Transit Center. She later appeared on video surveillance.
    Hoggle was apprehended several days later with an altered appearance, but without Sarah or Jacob.

    Their Father Holds Onto Hope They Will Be Found

    For the first two months of her time in police custody, Catherine refused to tell police where the children were, only remaining adamant they were OK. But in November 2014, she told her mother and Turner she wanted to take police to see the kids.

    "She said that she wanted to show the police where the kids were," Turner said. "I asked her how come she doesn't show me, I'm their father, I could pick them up, and then she said that it wouldn't do anything for her to show me, that she needed to show the police herself."

    However, a judge said he didn't think Catherine Hoggle was competent and refused to sign an emergency order to let her go with police to look for the missing children.

    Since then, Hoggle has not given any information that could lead to finding Jacob or Sarah. She is charged with child neglect and abduction and hindering an investigation, but has been found incompetent to stand trial several times.

    Prosecutors believe she is faking incompetency.

    In the spring, Hoggle's lawyer told News4 she has tried to escape several times the psychiatric hospital numerous times.

    Over the past two years, Turner has organized multiple searches for his children. Turner and other family members have remained determined to find out what happened to them.

    "I miss my kids. I want them home," Turner has said.


    Source: Two Years Later, Still No Sign of Sarah and Jacob Hoggle | NBC4 Washington http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...#ixzz4JcpjRb5A
    Follow us: @nbcwashington on Twitter | NBCWashington on Facebook

  19. #119
    Senior Member Deviant Toaster's Avatar
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    I don't think this is going to end well. I would think that if she left them with someone, that person would have come forward by now. I really feel for this guy, it's a horrible situation all around.

  20. #120
    Senior Member aphaziak's Avatar
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    This case haunts me. Those poor frigging kids and that poor family.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZoMyGoddess! View Post
    maybe when the check comes next time, just throw your dick on the table and be like "if you got the check, i got dessert"

  21. #121
    Senior Member kevansvault's Avatar
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    Safe my ass. And they can hold that bitch until hell freezes over, it won't change a thing. Two years. Two years and this bitch hasn't given up where they are? Part of me says "fuck it...put her sorry ass in a hole in the ground." The rest of me argues the "mental illness" argument". But if she doesn't understand that giving people the location of the children is the best thing to do, then there is zero hope of finding out what happened to them without further information.
    Don't like what I have to say? I respect that. Go fuck yourself.

  22. #122
    Moderator bowieluva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevansvault View Post
    Safe my ass. And they can hold that bitch until hell freezes over, it won't change a thing. Two years. Two years and this bitch hasn't given up where they are? Part of me says "fuck it...put her sorry ass in a hole in the ground." The rest of me argues the "mental illness" argument". But if she doesn't understand that giving people the location of the children is the best thing to do, then there is zero hope of finding out what happened to them without further information.
    Wow I'm glad I missed this completely devoid of compassion or even clinical understanding of severe mental illness until right now.

    Update: she keeps trying to escape the facility.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.8bb602a79704

    Hoggle, who police suspect killed Jacob, 2, and Sarah, 3, has never made it out of the Clifton T. Perkins Hospital Center in Jessup. But at least eight times, according to court records, she has grabbed a staff member’s security badge, run toward the door of her locked unit and occasionally made it beyond that first barrier.

    Through her hospital stay, Hoggle has said her children are safe and that she wants to see them.

    “I’m loving to my kids,” she told a psychiatrist last summer, “and I’ve done everything for them every day of my life.
    This whole thing is very sad for everyone.

  23. #123
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    The Vanished podcast did a good episode on this case - gives a good rundown of the story

    http://www.thevanishedpodcast.com/ep...d-jacob-hoggle

  24. #124
    Moderator bowieluva's Avatar
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    This is a really extreme case. The woman is clearly not competent to stand trial, and the strongest synthetic cocktail would still not be valid because when/if this transpired, she was completely out of her mind. She should be hospitalized and taken care of. It's very sad to me, and not something any vengeance will satisfy.

  25. #125
    Administrator Olivia's Avatar
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    I just saw this update on fb
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