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Thread: 5 Reasons to suspect jesus never existed

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    Senior Member bonita's Avatar
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    5 Reasons to suspect jesus never existed

    Im so tired of these church priests driving in Bentleys and Mercedes because all the money the fools who go to "Church" give to them. Church should just be called "scam city" as all they do is take your money and divide the world with their bs religious fake views. SO SICK OF PEOPLE THINKING JESUS OR GOD EXISTS, and here are 5 reasons why

    Most antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are ?mythologized history.? In other words, they think that around the start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity.

    At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a ?historical Jesus? became mythologized.

    For over 200 years, a wide ranging array of theologians and historians?most of them Christian?analyzed ancient texts, both those that made it into the Bible and those that didn?t, in attempts to excavate the man behind the myth. Several current or recent bestsellers take this approach, distilling the scholarship for a popular audience. Familiar titles include Zealotby Reza Aslan and How Jesus Became Godby Bart Ehrman.

    But other scholars believe that the gospel stories are actually ?historicized mythology.? In this view, those ancient mythic templates are themselves the kernel. They got filled in with names, places and other real world details as early sects of Jesus worship attempted to understand and defend the devotional traditions they had received.

    The notion that Jesus never existed is a minority position. Of course it is! says David Fitzgerald, author of Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All.For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.

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    Fitzgerald is an atheist speaker and writer, popular with secular students and community groups. The internet phenom, Zeitgeist the Movie introduced millions to some of the mythic roots of Christianity. But Zeitgeist and similar works contain known errors and oversimplifications that undermine their credibility. Fitzgerald seeks to correct that by giving young people interesting, accessible information that is grounded in accountable scholarship.

    More academic arguments in support of the Jesus Myth theory can be found in the writings of Richard Carrier and Robert Price. Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history uses the tools of his trade to show, among other things, how Christianity might have gotten off the ground without a miracle. Price, by contrast, writes from the perspective of a theologian whose biblical scholarship ultimately formed the basis for his skepticism. It is interesting to note that some of the harshest debunkers of fringe Jesus myth theories like those from Zeitgeist or Joseph Atwill (who tries to argue that the Romans invented Jesus) are from serious Mythicists like Fitzgerald, Carrier and Price.

    The arguments on both sides of this question?mythologized history or historicized mythology?fill volumes, and if anything the debate seems to be heating up rather than resolving. A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against Jesus? historicity. Since many people, both Christian and not, find it surprising that this debate even exists?that credible scholars might think Jesus never existed?here are some of the key points that keep the doubts alive:

    1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef. In the words of Bart Ehrman: ?What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references ? nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death ? even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era ? there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time ? the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus? name ever so much as mentioned.? (pp. 56-57)

    2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus? life, which become more crystalized in later texts.Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth, for example. No wise men, no star in the east, no miracles. Historians have long puzzled over the ?Silence of Paul? on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus? authority precisely when it would make his case. What?s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus? disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples ?or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. He virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren?t just vague, but contradict the gospels. The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus? own followers and family; but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!

    Liberal theologian Marcus Borg suggests that people read the books of the New Testament in chronological order to see how early Christianity unfolded. ?Placing the Gospels after Paul makes it clear that as written documents they are not the source of early Christianity but its product. The Gospel ? the good news ? of and about Jesus existed before the Gospels. They are the products of early Christian communities several decades after Jesus? historical life and tell us how those communities saw his significance in their historical context.?

    3. Even the New Testament stories don?t claim to be first-hand accounts. We now know that the four gospels were assigned the names of the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, not written by them. To make matter sketchier, the name designations happened sometime in second century, around 100 years or more after Christianity supposedly began. For a variety of reasons, the practice of pseudonymous writing was common at the time and many contemporary documents are ?signed? by famous figures. The same is true of the New Testament epistles except for a handful of letters from Paul (6 out of 13) which are broadly thought to be genuine. But even the gospel stories don?t actually say, ?I was there.? Rather, they claim the existence of other witnesses, a phenomenon familiar to anyone who has heard the phrase, my aunt knew someone who . . . .

    4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other.If you think you know the Jesus story pretty well, I suggest that you pause at this point to test yourself with the 20 question quiz at ExChristian.net.

    The gospel of Mark is thought to be the earliest existing ?life of Jesus,? and linguistic analysis suggests that Luke and Matthew both simply reworked Mark and added their own corrections and new material. But they contradict each other and, to an even greater degree contradict the much later gospel of John, because they were written with different objectives for different audiences. The incompatible Easter stories offer one example of how much the stories disagree.

    5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons. They include a cynic philosopher, charismatic Hasid, liberal Pharisee, conservative rabbi, Zealot revolutionary, nonviolent pacifist to borrow from a much longer listassembled by Price. In his words (pp. 15-16), ?The historical Jesus (if there was one) might well have been a messianic king, or a progressive Pharisee, or a Galilean shaman, or a magus, or a Hellenistic sage. But he cannot very well have been all of them at the same time.? John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar grumbles that ?the stunning diversity is an academic embarrassment.?

    For David Fitzgerald, these issues and more lead to a conclusion that he finds inescapable:

    Jesus appears to be an effect, not a cause, of Christianity. Paul and the rest of the first generation of Christians searched the Septuagint translation of Hebrew scriptures to create a Mystery Faith for the Jews, complete with pagan rituals like a Lord?s Supper, Gnostic terms in his letters, and a personal savior god to rival those in their neighbors? longstanding Egyptian, Persian, Hellenistic and Roman traditions.

    In a soon-to-be-released follow up to Nailed, entitled Jesus: Mything in Action, Fitzgeraldargues that the many competing versions proposed by secular scholars are just as problematic as any ?Jesus of Faith:? Even if one accepts that there was a real Jesus of Nazareth, the question has little practical meaning: Regardless of whether or not a first century rabbi called Yeshua ben Yosef lived, the ?historical Jesus? figures so patiently excavated and re-assembled by secular scholars are themselves fictions.



    Source - http://www.salon.com/2014/09/01/5_re...never_existed/

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    fun hater Shins's Avatar
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    It seems so common sense, yet 'Jesus' (or the idea of) is (arguably) the root cause of world wide wars.

    Amazing.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Listen, if no one cares when a crazy noodle walks in and executes children with a gun, no one cares about anything.

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    Certified Grumple Bottoms Ron_NYC's Avatar
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    Yea, but thanks to early indoctrination, you cannot even have a serious conversation with devout believers. They are SO convinced that what they've been told is real, they basically stick their fingers in their ears and say "la la la, I can't hear you" if you try and tell them otherwise. I just cannot fathom someone can be SO convinced that their "God" is the right one when there are literally thousands to choose from. I'm not even talking about lack of evidence here!

    If you introduced the concept of this magical being to someone as an adult, they'd laugh at you; tell a child they better watch out and better be good because someone is watching them be good or bad, and they'll look over their shoulder until the day they die.

    Yeshua ben Yosef is an awesome name though. I love that shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Ron was the best part, hands down.

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    Member AmandaGunn's Avatar
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    wether you believe in him or not , it's no skin off my back. But Don't lump me in with those other so called Christians though, that I believe in Christ is really the only thing I share with those self righteous , self absorbed hypocrites who have turned it into a laughing stock and a religion based on convenience.

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    (ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧ Amy1217's Avatar
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    It's always been a religion of convenience.

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    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    My science class is being taught by an avowed atheist and half the readings we are doing are on how religion makes no sense and how creationists are crackpots. One guy wrote in the margins of his scantron on "Jesus is the only answer" so my teacher put that up on the projector and said that if he believes Jesus is the only answer, that means he believes everything he marked is wrong so he gets a zero. a lot of people hate this teacher but I lurve him.
    Quote Originally Posted by songbirdsong View Post
    "Say, you know who could handle this penis? MY MOTHER."

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    Member AmandaGunn's Avatar
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    I try to stay out of religion ego matches. Aitheism as well as science are religions unto themselves, and I've seen just as many hypocritical aithiests as I have Christians, so sure they are right and have all the answers. Yet our world is still messed up.. Go figure.

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    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    No, no they're not.
    Quote Originally Posted by songbirdsong View Post
    "Say, you know who could handle this penis? MY MOTHER."

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    Member AmandaGunn's Avatar
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    Sure they are. They attempt to explain the universe and why things happen, just like any religion or mythology.

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    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    Except science uses facts to explain life, facts which are verifiable through repeated testing. You can't test religious beliefs.

    Eta: but trying to explain the differences between science and religion would be like trying to explain the difference between sadism and masochism to a 14 year old sel-proclaimed sadomasochist.
    Last edited by animosity; 11-28-2015 at 12:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by songbirdsong View Post
    "Say, you know who could handle this penis? MY MOTHER."

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    The Dude abides. strmmrgrrl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Getting arrested for coke in Vegas is like being found eating a chocolate bar in the willy wonka factory.

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    Member AmandaGunn's Avatar
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    Science is full of "facts" that are not very factual. Sure things have been observed, but there is still a lot of things unknown or can't be explained, yet are passed off as fact. Science has a lot more theories than what you can define as fact.

    It's all good though.. You are entitled to believe in whatever system you wish.

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    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    Sure there are. Ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by songbirdsong View Post
    "Say, you know who could handle this penis? MY MOTHER."

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    Senior Member OctoberT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    Science is full of "facts" that are not very factual. Sure things have been observed, but there is still a lot of things unknown or can't be explained, yet are passed off as fact. Science has a lot more theories than what you can define as fact.

    It's all good though.. You are entitled to believe in whatever system you wish.
    Like what?

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    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    Hur hur, evolution is only a theory, duh.
    Quote Originally Posted by songbirdsong View Post
    "Say, you know who could handle this penis? MY MOTHER."

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    Senior Member UncomfortablyNumb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    Hur hur, evolution is only a theory, duh.
    No no...evolution is a religion if you ask little miss erotic up there.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    She transitioned from a stupid asshole to a dumb bitch.

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    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncomfortablyNumb View Post
    No no...evolution is a religion if you ask little miss erotic up there.
    The difference is, if we pray hard enough for evolution, it will eventually happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by songbirdsong View Post
    "Say, you know who could handle this penis? MY MOTHER."

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    I try to stay out of religion ego matches.
    Resurrects an almost 2 year old thread on the subject. Dickhead.

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    (ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧ Amy1217's Avatar
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    It's ATHEIST. Like anyone is going to listen to you when you can't even fucking spell. Fuck out of here with that shit.

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    Senior Member UncomfortablyNumb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    The difference is, if we pray hard enough for evolution, it will eventually happen.
    I'll start praying harder to the evolution gods.
    Quote Originally Posted by hazydaze View Post
    Resurrects an almost 2 year old thread on the subject. Dickhead.
    Makes a shit ton of sense, right? I don't like to discuss abortion, but maybe I'll go dig up that one too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amy1217 View Post
    It's ATHEIST. Like anyone is going to listen to you when you can't even fucking spell. Fuck out of here with that shit.
    There are plenty of reasons no one is going to listen to her.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    She transitioned from a stupid asshole to a dumb bitch.

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    Senior Member blighted star's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    I try to stay out of religion ego matches. Aitheism as well as science are religions unto themselves, and I've seen just as many hypocritical aithiests as I have Christians, so sure they are right and have all the answers. Yet our world is still messed up.. Go figure.


    Bumps thread that's been ignored for over a year to start one

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    Senior Member marycontrary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    Science is full of "facts" that are not very factual. Sure things have been observed, but there is still a lot of things unknown or can't be explained, yet are passed off as fact. Science has a lot more theories than what you can define as fact.

    It's all good though.. You are entitled to believe in whatever system you wish.
    In 10th grade you will learn the meaning of the word theory and how it relates to science. Newton's theory of gravity does not mean that Newton had an idea or a hunch that gravity exists. Science begs to be questioned and tested, that's why the term theory is used. Theories can be proven or rejected and modified. A theory explains observations that are gathered during the scientific process.

    Fuck you for trying to tell me that atheism is a religion.

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    Moderator Bewitchingstorm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    Bumps thread that's been ignored for over a year to start one
    Exactly. I think it is obvious "erotic" is an idiot.

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    Senior Member bermstalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    wether you believe in him or not , it's no skin off my back. But Don't lump me in with those other so called Christians though, that I believe in Christ is really the only thing I share with those self righteous , self absorbed hypocrites who have turned it into a laughing stock and a religion based on convenience.

    Hon, don't sell yourself so short. You're pretty much a prefect example on why Christians get side-eyed. Thank you for being a good example.

    Bless your heart
    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    Lol, sorry,I'm sadomasochist, ant just imagining her on top of me and forcing me to do things with her are creepy disgustedly hot
    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    I've tried just for curiosity, several asphixiation methods. I've only heard about freezing to death. But from what I've experienced being hanged, choked, bagged and strangled, and what I've heard about freezing. bagging/suffocating is the least painful/anxiety of the bunch, you simply pass out and go to sleep. If done right, before your auto response kicks in it's also the quickest depending on factors of the other methods. Freezing however, while probably not as painful as strangling or hanging, it's not without discomfort and it takes a long time. You don't simply go to sleep. That only happens just right before.
    And this is just based on my experiance and what I've read on the subject, I'm not an expert by any means...
    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    ok, that woman is so creepy it's actually erotic....
    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    Well my parents haven't come over here and killed my master yet, so I'm assuming it's still safely secret.
    At one point I thought I was found out when my mom called me to come over to the house because some detectives wanted to talk to me, but that turned out to be about the creepy pedophile neighbor across the street that died.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    Most my dreams involve me dying in some form and subsequent abuse , handling and humiliation of my corpse.

    One bizarre one involved large aliens 30x our size coming to the planet to fish for giant mega sharks. We were run through with larg hooks and cast out into the ocean, down into the abyss. In the blackness I knew at any second massive teeth would come out of the deep and bite down on me.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    Well I mention it more as a feeling, not in the context of other people getting off on it. Though as a sadomasochist and into submission and humiliation, that works too.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    I'm fascinated by all death, and every aspect of death, both physical, emotional , spiritual, and even erotic. So it's only logical to seek out like minded individuals. I can't say the things on my mind to my parents or in other forums, they wouldn't understand. Maybe here, I can be more myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaGunn View Post
    Our county morgue lists public data of those who they perform autopsies on. I also keep a journal and spreadsheet of thier info and how they died. It's a hobbie of mine.

  25. #25
    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    Praise Jesus, amen.
    Quote Originally Posted by songbirdsong View Post
    "Say, you know who could handle this penis? MY MOTHER."

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