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Thread: Jahi McMath (13) died? after surgery to remove her tonsils

  1. #101
    I will choose freewill Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    Interesting discussion that is somewhat relevant to this case...

    http://www.ccm-l.org/discussion1/Ethics/uncoop.html
    A very good read! It shows how different Doctors have different methods methods in dealing with this situation. Some much me sympathetic than others. It's important for doctors to remember that not everybody is educated in the ways of brain death. But it's even more of a delicate balance when you hope to harvest organs.

    My question with this case is how could a judge sign the paperwork demanding the hospital keep her on vent? It's as if this judge is telling the doctors how to do their job. How would a judge feel if a doctor barged in and took over their court? That's essentially what the judge is doing here. And in the process bolstering the family's belief that they are right and that there's hope for her. I think in cases of proven brain death that No judge should be allowed to overrule the Doctor. Period.
    Thank you for posting!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queena View Post
    Since you took offense, and told me to suck your dick, please feel free to suck my even bigger dick. They do say Blacks have bigger dicks anyway, I'll slap this shit up and down your face.

  2. #102
    Senior Member bermstalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    If he was alive I really feel they placed him on the ventilator to try to save his life. When it comes to kids, health care professionals are diligent. Not that they aren't with non kids, but no one wants to see a child die. Also, they probably vented him in order to be able to perform neurological function to determine what the prognosis was going to be. I'm sure the last thing on their minds was preserving his organs for donation. They may have had thoughts of if the kid didn't make it he could possibly be an organ donor, but I bet they worked their arses off trying to save him.

    Personally, I prefer to intubate everyone who crashes in the field so when they are brought into the ER they can get placed on the vent and not pronounced DOA. 1) It gives the ER the opportunity to fight for that persons life, 2) It provides the opportunity to check neurological function (the person was without oxygen for X amount of minutes and will show if there is any brain activity what so ever), 3) Organ preservation if, in deed, there is no neurological function.

    I really do think one of the biggest problems when families fight like this is because brain death has not been explained appropriately. Of course, there are some people who will just not get it no matter what you say, do, or show them.

    You would think a nurse would understand it, but you would also be surprised how many health care professionals don't know what brain death means. They think it's Teri Schiavo.



    Yep. Sometimes "being nice" kicks them in the butt. Then again, I think the short and sweet is the nice thing to do in the long run. It's like a double edged sword in a way.



    It happens. There are complications with any and every kind of procedure. There are a couple of threads on here about people who died having their wisdom teeth removed. One of my mom's friends died during routine gall bladder surgery. They are all low risk, but it does happen.
    Right. My husband almost died from an Appendicitis. He also had a major surgery where they removed parts of his organs. Afterwards, he crashed. He wasn't brain dead, but his fever reached 107.5, and he started having major seizures. They talked about the possibility of him becoming brain dead. His heart stopped twice. They finally rushed him to the ICU and wrapped him in some kind of cold blanket. I never will forget the empty feeling I had sitting in the ICU waiting room and the dr. telling me he would probably die. I remember yelling at him "are you fucking kidding me? Die from an appendix?" I showed my ass in that waiting room that night.

    Finally a bunch of experts came from Kentucky Univ and said that he was experiencing something called "drug fever"
    From what I understand, the antibiotics the hospital was giving him were attacking his body.

    He recovered. Almost 5 weeks in the hospital. 1 1/2 weeks were spent in ICU. And some bad ass scars to show for it. I should post them.


    AND a bill that was well over 700,000.



    Quote Originally Posted by McMama View Post
    I feel pretty horrible for them. I am not a stupid person, but I think that I would have a hard time not becoming completely ignorant and in denial if my child went in for a tonsillectomy and then a doctor told me she was dead . I hope the family can come to terms with this sooner than later. It's a shitty situation no matter how long she's left on the vent.
    I agree.
    It's your child. No parent should have to bury their kids. I can't imagine what I would do in the same situation as the parents. Really, I can't hate on them.
    'In the name of King David, I threw a piece of raw meat into the street in exchange for (giving) my husband to the wild rabid dogs,' (Jean Kasem)


  3. #103
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bermstalker View Post
    Right. My husband almost died from an Appendicitis. He also had a major surgery where they removed parts of his organs. Afterwards, he crashed. He wasn't brain dead, but his fever reached 107.5, and he started having major seizures. They talked about the possibility of him becoming brain dead. His heart stopped twice. They finally rushed him to the ICU and wrapped him in some kind of cold blanket. I never will forget the empty feeling I had sitting in the ICU waiting room and the dr. telling me he would probably die. I remember yelling at him "are you fucking kidding me? Die from an appendix?" I showed my ass in that waiting room that night.

    Finally a bunch of experts came from Kentucky Univ and said that he was experiencing something called "drug fever"
    From what I understand, the antibiotics the hospital was giving him were attacking his body.

    He recovered. Almost 5 weeks in the hospital. 1 1/2 weeks were spent in ICU. And some bad ass scars to show for it. I should post them.


    AND a bill that was well over 700,000.

    This is amazing! Holy crap! I'm glad the hubs recovered.

    Totes post the pics of his scars. Maybe not in this thread though? If he's ok with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  4. #104
    I will choose free-toes. SuchAClassicGirl's Avatar
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    I have a very good friend whose husband had a routine colonoscopy. Came home, took a nap, never woke up.

    Quote Originally Posted by beli View Post
    Ron, you done went full retard, son.

  5. #105
    Senior Member bermstalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    This is amazing! Holy crap! I'm glad the hubs recovered.

    Totes post the pics of his scars. Maybe not in this thread though? If he's ok with it.
    I posted the picture in the NSFW. Geez, it brings back memories.
    'In the name of King David, I threw a piece of raw meat into the street in exchange for (giving) my husband to the wild rabid dogs,' (Jean Kasem)


  6. #106
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    "If this Angel is brain dead how is she holding her mothers hand the way she is doing?Im in the healthcare field and I have never seen anyone who braindead able to respond like she is.They say my friend uncle is brain dead but he flickering his eyes and slightly opening them and moves his hand frm time to time.Thats not braindead."

    Oh my god, shut the fuck up. I'm sad this person works in 'the healthcare field'. This is exactly how my hand looks when someone holds my hand I'm not holding it back. Your hand doesn't just perfectly straight when someone picks up your hand to hold it, so clearly the fingers curl in a little bit and it's not even that much to say she is grasping her moms hand. Holy shit.

    And I can't believe they are posting the doctors number and harassing him to keep her 'alive'.

  7. #107
    fun hater Shins's Avatar
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    Sorry, these people are assholes. Not only to the doctors and hospital, but instead of putting their dead daughter to rest, they'd rather she rot in a hospital bed.

    Cool.

  8. #108
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchAClassicGirl View Post
    I have a very good friend whose husband had a routine colonoscopy. Came home, took a nap, never woke up.
    I'm always a little nervous when I go in for the garden hose.

    Quote Originally Posted by bermstalker View Post
    I posted the picture in the NSFW. Geez, it brings back memories.

    Sweet!




    Katerss- At first I thought you were talking about your uncle and I was face palming. But, yeah, that persons uncle is not brain dead if he is responding to stimuli. However, it is not unusual for people to have small jerking movements. I almost died the first time I saw it in an OR as we were prepping for an organ donation case. I was all, "HE MOVED! HE MOVED!" It was explained to me and I spoke to a Neurologist, but the only way I can explain it is kind of like residual nerves firing. It was too complex to retain what was being said to me, so that's the best I can do.


    I should have googled first. Here is a really good article that explains it soooooo much better than I or how it was explained to me by a Neurologist. hahaha


    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0113080008.htm




    Jan. 13, 2000 — ST. PAUL, MN - Many brain-dead patients have spontaneous movements such as jerking of fingers or bending of toes that can be disturbing to family members and health care professionals and even cause them to question the brain-death diagnosis. These movements occur in 39 percent of brain-dead patients, according to a study published in the January 11 issue of Neurology, the scientific journal of the American Academy of Neurology.

    “We found that these movements are more common than has been reported or believed,” said neurologist and study author Jos? Bueri, MD, of J. M. Ramos Mejia Hospital in Buenos Aires, Argentina. “People need to know that these movements are spinal reflexes that do not involve any brain activity.”

    The study examined all patients at the hospital during an 18-month period with a diagnosis of brain death. Of the 38 patients, 15 had these motor movements. In all cases, the movements were seen in the first 24 hours after brain death diagnosis, and no movements were seen after 72 hours.

    Some of the movements occurred spontaneously; others were triggered by touch. Examiners used tests designed to elicit motor movements, such as lifting the arms or legs or touching the palm of the hand.

    Electroencephalogram (EEG) tests did not show any brain activity in any of the patients with movements.

    “If the lack of understanding of these movements leads to a delay in the brain death diagnosis or questions about the diagnosis afterwards, there can be important practical and legal implications, especially for organ procurement for transplantation,” Bueri said. “Family members and others need to understand that these movements originate in the spinal cord, not in the brain, and their presence does not mean that there is brain activity.

    One of the most startling movements for family members and health care professionals is called the ‘Lazarus sign.’ It is a sequence of movements lasting for a few seconds that can occur in some brain dead patients, either spontaneously or right after the ventilator is disconnected,” Bueri said. It is named for the episode in the Bible where Lazarus is raised from the dead.

    “It starts with stretching of the arms, followed by crossing or touching of the arms on the chest, and finally falling of the arms alongside the torso,” he said. “It is also a spinal reflex, but it can be disturbing to family members and others who see this.”

    Another article in this issue of Neurology describes unusual movements in two brain dead patients. The movements occurred in a 30-year-old woman and an 11-month-old baby at a hospital in Barcelona, Spain. Both patients extended their arms, flexed their wrists and curled up their fingers each time the mechanical ventilator inflated their lungs. The movements stopped after the patients were disconnected from the ventilator.

    “We had never seen these type of movements before, and they hadn‘t been reported in the medical journals,” said neurologist Joan Mart?-F?bregas, MD, PhD, of the Hospital de la Santa Creu i Sant Pau.

    The doctors conducted additional tests and confirmed that there was no brain activity. “The living cells that were ordering these muscles to move were not brain cells or brain stem cells, but cells located in the spinal cord,” he said. “It‘s important for family members and health care professionals to be aware of this possibility.”

    A neurologist is a medical doctor with specialized training in diagnosing, treating and managing disorders of the brain and nervous system.

    The whole article is pretty good so don't stop with just the bold parts.
    Last edited by morbidT; 12-23-2013 at 11:09 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  9. #109
    Certified Grumple Bottoms Ron_NYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchAClassicGirl View Post
    I have a very good friend whose husband had a routine colonoscopy. Came home, took a nap, never woke up.
    That is incredibly sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Ron was the best part, hands down.

  10. #110
    Senior Member TupeloHoney's Avatar
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    I don't know what good this is going to do, since the mom said that is doesn't matter how many doctors tell her Jahi isn't coming back ... but maybe the next doctor will be able to break through her impenetrable wall of denial. The miracle everyone needs to be praying for is that this girl's family will finally be able to accept reality.


    From today's hearing:

    http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...expert-examine

    Oakland court appoints outside doctor to examine brain-dead girl

    OAKLAND -- As supporters rallied Monday morning in North Oakland to keep 13-year-old Jahi McMath on a breathing machine at Children's Hospital Oakland, a judge appointed an independent expert to examine the teen.

    Alameda County Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo chose Dr. Paul Fisher, Chief of Pediatric Neurology at Stanford Children's Hospital, to determine whether Jahi is legally dead. Fisher is considered an expert on brain death and has performed many such examinations, according to the court and hospital.

    The examination was expected to take place later Monday, with the results to be discussed at a 9:30 a.m. court hearing on Tuesday. The judge also was expected to decide later Monday whether a second expert, Dr. Paul A. Byrne, neonatologist, pediatrician and clinical professor of pediatrics at the University of Toledo's College of Medicine, would also be allowed to examine Jahi.

    The family wants to ensure the possibility of a second opinion in addition to Fisher's exam, said Christopher Dolan, the attorney representing the family.

    Both sides expressed satisfaction with the ruling, with Jahi's grandmother, Sandra Chatman, said that it will allow Jahi's family to be "a little settled."

    "We're not totally satisfied," she said. "But we do feel like we are finally being heard, and that this is a step toward making sure that Jahi is still alive on Christmas, and that's been very important to us since the beginning of this whole thing."

    It wasn't clear what will happen after Walker's findings are presented to the court, but Dolan said the family, while "very gratified that there are additional tests to be made," maintains the hospital cannot make the decision to remove Jahi from the machines keeping her alive. Dolan cited a person's constitutional rights to privacy and religious freedom in making his argument.

    "It is our position that no doctor determination can end a life without parental consent," he said, adding that he will "seek a writ with the court" independent of the doctor's decision to keep Jahi alive through the holiday. The family has cited their strong faith in prayer and are asking that Jahi remain alive through the holiday.

    "We think that Jahi will be alive through Christmas," Dolan said. "That's a major relief for the family."

    Dolan also said the family is "desperately seeking" to move Jahi to another facility where she can be kept on a ventilator, but that the process has been difficult because of the Christmas season.

    Jahi has been on a ventilator since Dec. 12, three days after she underwent a tonsillectomy to correct her sleep apnea, weight gain and other health issues.

    After the hearing Monday, Dr. David Durand, Children's Hospital Oakland's chief of pediatrics, spoke to the media for the first time and said that Jahi's condition was the result of a "very complex surgery. It was more complex than just a tonsillectomy."

    When pressed, Durand said he was unable to discuss the case any further. He said an EEG will be performed by Fisher, as will a brain nucleotide scan, in which dye will be inserted into the blood stream to see if blood is reaching the brain.

    "We are sorry that Jahi McMath suffered tragic complications from her complex surgery," Durand said in a statement emailed to reporters after the hearing. "Our hearts go out to the grieving family and community about this sad situation. We look forward to the independent expert's evaluation of the patient."

    Chatman sat in the front row of the hearing with Jahi's mother, Naliah Winkfield and Naliah's husband, Martin Winkfield. Naliah and Martin Winkfield wore black T-shirts with picture's of Jahi on the front and back and the emblazoned words "Pray for Jahi."

    What the family wants, above all else, Naliah Winfield said, was "to give her more time. Hopefully everything will work out in her favor, because I know my daughter wants to live. She enjoys life, and I know she wouldn't like somebody putting a time limit on her life."

    As the hearing took place, about 50 family members and supporters participated in an hourlong march that looped in a mile around North Oakland, beginning and ending at Children's Hospital Oakland, carrying signs and chanting "Keep Jahi alive".

    Derrick Mann, Jahi's godfather and pastor at Yeshua Ministries of Hayward, led a prayer at the end of the march, calling upon God to go into the hospital and breathe life into Jahi.

    "I feel like they should keep her on life support as long as they can," said Chequalah McMath, 21, Jahi's older sister. "I feel it's wrong to pull the plug just because they want to. I feel like there is hope if we just leave it up to God. We pray every day, all day and all night."

    A judge ruled last week that officials at the hospital were to keep Jahi on the ventilator until the court-appointed doctor examined her. Nailah Winkfield sent out pictures through social media on Monday showing that Jahi's ventilated breaths were reduced from 15 to 13, but Dr. Durand said that such a change is in keeping with "the status quo" of maintaining Jahi's condition. Judge Grillo emphasized at the hearing that the restraining order remains in effect at least until Tuesday morning.

    In a legal filing, an attorney for Children's Hospital Oakland maintained that "two separate Children's physicians determined that Ms. McMath was brain-dead. In addition, at the request of the family, three additional independent physicians -- unaffiliated with Children's and either selected or approved by Ms. McMath's family/next of kin -- examined Ms. McMath.

    "Each confirmed the diagnosis of brain death. ... Accordingly, Children's has declared Ms. McMath to be dead."

    But supporters are praying for Jahi's recovery.

    "It's God's decision and not anybody else's, when they should go," said Diana Romero of Hayward, who decided to attend Monday's rally and march after reading about it in the news. "I think it's the hospital's mistake so they should give the family as much time as they need. "

    On Sunday, faith leaders called on Alameda County District Attorney Nancy O'Malley to open an investigation into the case and called on the hospital to punish certain administrators whom the family said have been insensitive to their grieving. Chief on their list was Durand, whom they demanded should be disciplined or required to attend sensitivity training. The family has accused him of being insensitive in private meetings. Durand did not address those accusations on Monday.

  11. #111
    Senior Member TupeloHoney's Avatar
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    Pardon my double post, but here is another good article about brain death/life support: http://www.mercurynews.com/science/c...ng-complicates


    Also, I don't think this has been discussed:

    http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/na...lowTwt_LABrand
    Doug Straus said this case is not about a "routine" tonsillectomy. He said the surgery was complicated from the beginning, as three procedures were being done simultaneously. The three surgeries, according to court documents, were: an adenotonsillectomy; a uvulopalatopharyngloplasty, or UPPP, which is tissue removal in the throat; and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates, which is nasal obstruction. The family has previously said the surgery was to help fix Jahi's sleep apnea.

  12. #112
    Senior Member andrea0121's Avatar
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    Jesus. These people are hopeless.

    Eric's mom was on life support after having a heart attack. She had scleroderma really bad and I guess the hospital staff struggled to intubate her because of her condition. Anyway, she went a bit too long without oxygen even though they were able to get her vitals back up. It took about 2 full days after intubation for the staff of doctors to come to the conclusion that she was brain dead and only being kept alive by the machines. It's horrible news to hear but a rational person understand that there is no coming back from brain dead. The doctors flat out told us there would be no quality of life, she would forever be on machines...and she wouldn't really be her anymore. Eric's family is pretty spiritual too so they didn't try to pray her back to life.

    Very sad all the way around.

  13. #113
    Senior Member Music's Avatar
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    And when that doctor says the same thing these others have, they'll appoint another one, and then another one, etc. I can't believe this is allowed to continue.

  14. #114
    Senior Member McMama's Avatar
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    This thread is freaking me out. I had a dream about it last night. I'm scheduled to have oral surgery on the 15th of January .

    /coolstorybro

  15. #115
    Senior Member raisedbywolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    I'm always a little nervous when I go in for the garden hose.




    Sweet!




    Katerss- At first I thought you were talking about your uncle and I was face palming. But, yeah, that persons uncle is not brain dead if he is responding to stimuli. However, it is not unusual for people to have small jerking movements. I almost died the first time I saw it in an OR as we were prepping for an organ donation case. I was all, "HE MOVED! HE MOVED!" It was explained to me and I spoke to a Neurologist, but the only way I can explain it is kind of like residual nerves firing. It was too complex to retain what was being said to me, so that's the best I can do.


    I should have googled first. Here is a really good article that explains it soooooo much better than I or how it was explained to me by a Neurologist. hahaha


    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0113080008.htm







    The whole article is pretty good so don't stop with just the bold parts.
    Here's a couple of videos of it happening. Warning, some may find these disturbing. (I did, but I also couldn't stop looking.)








  16. #116
    no one important animosity's Avatar
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    can someone tell me what accent this girl has?






    Quote Originally Posted by SuchAClassicGirl View Post
    whatever. quit acting like you've never had a kangaroo in your bed.

  17. #117
    Senior Member hamdinger125's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McMama View Post
    This thread is freaking me out. I had a dream about it last night. I'm scheduled to have oral surgery on the 15th of January .

    /coolstorybro
    If it makes you feel better, I had a co-worker who had similar surgery (tonsillectomy and trimming of her palate to help her sleep apnea) and she was fine. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post

    can someone tell me what accent this girl has?
    Sounds kinda Irish to me.

  18. #118
    Senior Member TupeloHoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    can someone tell me what accent this girl has?
    I'm going with Swedish or Icelandic

  19. #119
    Senior Member puzzld's Avatar
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    A California family's agonizing struggle to keep a 13-year-old girl alive on life support continued Monday when a judge in Oakland appointed Paul Graham Fisher, the chief of child neurology at Stanford University School of Medicine, to determine if Jahi McMath has any chance of recovering.

    Jahi underwent a tonsillectomy Dec. 9 in an effort to correct sleep apnea and other issues. Three days later, citing complications from the surgery, physicians placed Jahi on a ventilator. She was declared brain-dead, and it took a court order Friday to keep Children's Hospital Oakland from removing her from the breathing apparatus that is keeping her alive.

    STORY: Calif. hospital ordered to keep girl on life support

    Fisher is scheduled to present his findings on Jahi's prospects in court Tuesday, when the family will press Judge Evelio Grillo to allow Paul Byrne, a pediatric professor at the University of Toledo, to perform an additional evaluation of Jahi.

    While the hearing was underway, dozens of family members and supporters gathered for a 3-mile march to raise awareness for Jahi's plight. Emotions in the case have run high -- a Facebook page "Keep Jahi Mcmath on life support" warned marchers in advance to remain calm.

    "Please remember there will be children present and we want this to be a very peaceful & respectful March," a Facebook post reads. "Please come with the spirit of God & leave any foolishness behind."

    Lawyers for the hospital say two hospital physicians have determined Jahi is brain-dead -- and that, at the request of Jahi's family, three doctors unaffiliated with the hospital were called in. All agreed with the prognosis.

    "There is absolutely no medical possibility that (Jahi's) condition is reversible or that she will someday recover from death," declarations from the doctors said. "Thus, there is no medical justification to provide any further medical treatment whatsoever."

    Jahi's mother, Nailah Winkfield, says her daughter suffered massive bleeding after the surgery and went into cardiac arrest. Family members say they are praying that divine intervention will save Jahi's life.

    Winkfield, in an open letter this weekend, pleaded for prayers and time to keep her daughter on a ventilator past Monday, when a temporary restraining order barring the hospital from disconnecting life support had been set to expire.

    "Despite what they say, she is alive. I can touch her, she is warm. She responds to my touch," Winkfield wrote. "Given time I know (God) will spark her brain awake."

    Children's Hospital Oakland responded in a statement that while it sympathizes with Winkfield's wishes, "it would be unfair to give false hope that Jahi will come back to life."
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-dead/4173835/
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
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  20. #120
    I will choose freewill Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    "Despite what they say, she is alive. I can touch her, she is warm. She responds to my touch," Winkfield wrote. "Given time I know (God) will spark her brain awake."

    Mom is totally delusional. Case closed.
    http://mydeathspace.com/vb/signaturepics/sigpic87423_4.gif

    Quote Originally Posted by Queena View Post
    Since you took offense, and told me to suck your dick, please feel free to suck my even bigger dick. They do say Blacks have bigger dicks anyway, I'll slap this shit up and down your face.

  21. #121
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    I'm sick of seeing "Let God decide!" comments on this damn FB page.
    Okay, let God decide. Take away all the mechanics that aren't God-related and let God decide how to proceed. I bet she will die.

  22. #122
    I will choose freewill Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katerss View Post
    I'm sick of seeing "Let God decide!" comments on this damn FB page.
    Okay, let God decide. Take away all the mechanics that aren't God-related and let God decide how to proceed. I bet she will die.
    THANK YOU!
    http://mydeathspace.com/vb/signaturepics/sigpic87423_4.gif

    Quote Originally Posted by Queena View Post
    Since you took offense, and told me to suck your dick, please feel free to suck my even bigger dick. They do say Blacks have bigger dicks anyway, I'll slap this shit up and down your face.

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    Who knows, maybe she finally got some restful deep sleep instead of sleep apnea fucking it up and all she is doing is catching up on sleep and hibernating.

  24. #124
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    I snipped your article post to make room.

    Quote Originally Posted by TupeloHoney View Post
    I don't know what good this is going to do, since the mom said that is doesn't matter how many doctors tell her Jahi isn't coming back ... but maybe the next doctor will be able to break through her impenetrable wall of denial. The miracle everyone needs to be praying for is that this girl's family will finally be able to accept reality.


    From today's hearing:

    http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...expert-examine

    Oakland court appoints outside doctor to examine brain-dead girl


    Alameda County Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo chose Dr. Paul Fisher, Chief of Pediatric Neurology at Stanford Children's Hospital, to determine whether Jahi is legally dead. Fisher is considered an expert on brain death and has performed many such examinations, according to the court and hospital.

    The examination was expected to take place later Monday, with the results to be discussed at a 9:30 a.m. court hearing on Tuesday. The judge also was expected to decide later Monday whether a second expert, Dr. Paul A. Byrne, neonatologist, pediatrician and clinical professor of pediatrics at the University of Toledo's College of Medicine, would also be allowed to examine Jahi.

    The family wants to ensure the possibility of a second opinion in addition to Fisher's exam, said Christopher Dolan, the attorney representing the family.
    And because Dr. Fisher is such an expert they also want to allow Dr. Bryne to examine her when they don't agree with Dr. Fisher's findings. And at "second opinion." Dr. Fisher will be number 6th and Dr. Bryne will 7th.

    "We're not totally satisfied," she said. "But we do feel like we are finally being heard, and that this is a step toward making sure that Jahi is still alive on Christmas, and that's been very important to us since the beginning of this whole thing."

    It wasn't clear what will happen after Walker's findings are presented to the court, but Dolan said the family, while "very gratified that there are additional tests to be made," maintains the hospital cannot make the decision to remove Jahi from the machines keeping her alive. Dolan cited a person's constitutional rights to privacy and religious freedom in making his argument.

    "It is our position that no doctor determination can end a life without parental consent," he said, adding that he will "seek a writ with the court" independent of the doctor's decision to keep Jahi alive through the holiday. The family has cited their strong faith in prayer and are asking that Jahi remain alive through the holiday.

    "We think that Jahi will be alive through Christmas," Dolan said. "That's a major relief for the family."

    Dolan also said the family is "desperately seeking" to move Jahi to another facility where she can be kept on a ventilator, but that the process has been difficult because of the Christmas season.

    Jahi has been on a ventilator since Dec. 12, three days after she underwent a tonsillectomy to correct her sleep apnea, weight gain and other health issues.
    She is NOT being kept alive. No doctor has made the determination to "end a life without parental consent" because she is already dead. Her body is NOT alive either. It is being provided oxygen perfusion by mechanical ventilation.

    They can't find another facility to accept her because she is dead. Nursing homes and rehab facilities do not accept deceased people.

    So, she had the surgery December 9th and arrested on December 12th? This is the first I think I've heard this. I was under the impression she had the surgery on the 12th and was in recovery when she hemorrhaged.

    After the hearing Monday, Dr. David Durand, Children's Hospital Oakland's chief of pediatrics, spoke to the media for the first time and said that Jahi's condition was the result of a "very complex surgery. It was more complex than just a tonsillectomy."
    Now we are starting to hear more to this story.

    What the family wants, above all else, Naliah Winfield said, was "to give her more time. Hopefully everything will work out in her favor, because I know my daughter wants to live. She enjoys life, and I know she wouldn't like somebody putting a time limit on her life."
    I know plenty of people who have died even though they wanted to live and enjoyed life. I'm also pretty sure it's safe to assume many murder victims wanted to live, enjoyed life, and didn't want someone putting a time limit on their lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by TupeloHoney View Post
    Pardon my double post, but here is another good article about brain death/life support: http://www.mercurynews.com/science/c...ng-complicates
    Also, I don't think this has been discussed:

    http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/na...lowTwt_LABrand
    Yeah, things are slowly starting to come out, it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by andrea0121 View Post
    Jesus. These people are hopeless.

    Eric's mom was on life support after having a heart attack. She had scleroderma really bad and I guess the hospital staff struggled to intubate her because of her condition. Anyway, she went a bit too long without oxygen even though they were able to get her vitals back up. It took about 2 full days after intubation for the staff of doctors to come to the conclusion that she was brain dead and only being kept alive by the machines. It's horrible news to hear but a rational person understand that there is no coming back from brain dead. The doctors flat out told us there would be no quality of life, she would forever be on machines...and she wouldn't really be her anymore. Eric's family is pretty spiritual too so they didn't try to pray her back to life.

    Very sad all the way around.
    Ugh, That's terrible. I'm sorry for your loss. Was she actually pronounced as brain dead? I know it probably looks terrible of me to ask and I apologize for seeming insensitive. The reason is because if the doctors explained things like the bolded sentence they did not explain brain death appropriately and this is a huge issue with doctors across the country. This is what gives people false hope. I'm not saying you and your family had any false hope, but this is why it is easy to see why others do. The bold sentence sounds like a grave prognosis; "no quality of life, a life of machines, she won't be her anymore," still gives hope. The docs really did your family an injustice as they do other families when they feed that line when the person is actually brain dead. They need to honest with families, "your loved one has no brain activity, no blood flow to the brain, no brain stem reflexes" (provide the supporting evidence to the family, let them see the pictures), explain why their loved one is pink, warm, breathing, and has a heartbeat, "your loved one is gone. They have passed" and explain the difference between vegetative state, coma, and brain death.

    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    Here's a couple of videos of it happening. Warning, some may find these disturbing. (I did, but I also couldn't stop looking.)
    The first time I saw the movements I really thought I was going to pass out. I thought we were going to cut someone open who still had brain activity. My boss was cool enough to make sure it was explained to me and I understood it before we continued prepping. I felt no pressure what so ever. She was cool, the staff was cool, and the docs were cool. Of course, I wasn't screaming at the top of my lungs or acting like a nutter.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post

    Snipped article for space.

    Fisher is scheduled to present his findings on Jahi's prospects in court Tuesday, when the family will press Judge Evelio Grillo to allow Paul Byrne, a pediatric professor at the University of Toledo, to perform an additional evaluation of Jahi.

    Lawyers for the hospital say two hospital physicians have determined Jahi is brain-dead -- and that, at the request of Jahi's family, three doctors unaffiliated with the hospital were called in. All agreed with the prognosis.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-dead/4173835/

    Sounds like the family doesn't agree with Fisher's findings today and are hoping doc # 7 can give them what they want.

    Fisher was the 4th independent physician to examine her.

    Also, it's not a prognosis, it's a diagnosis.
    Last edited by morbidT; 12-23-2013 at 07:25 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  25. #125
    no one important animosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamdinger125 View Post
    Sounds kinda Irish to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TupeloHoney View Post
    I'm going with Swedish or Icelandic
    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73 View Post
    THANK YOU!
    thanks. i thought irish at first and after a while, decided it was definitely not irish.






    Quote Originally Posted by SuchAClassicGirl View Post
    whatever. quit acting like you've never had a kangaroo in your bed.

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