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Thread: Jahi McMath (13) died for real five years after she was declared brain dead following surgery complications

  1. #251
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    Yep, lots of drips. I'd like to know exactly what the hospital has her on currently. I think I read in an earlier article she was on one drip and the ventilator and that was it. As her body starts to break down she will need more meds to maintain every aspect of organ function.
    I've been hunting for any similar cases... I know lots of people are in coma's etc., but are you aware of other cases where dead people are maintained indefinitely on a ventilator?
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    Yep, lots of drips. I'd like to know exactly what the hospital has her on currently. I think I read in an earlier article she was on one drip and the ventilator and that was it. As her body starts to break down she will need more meds to maintain every aspect of organ function.
    Could the hospital get in trouble if they kept her on the ventilator but didn't give the extra meds you refer to (since they aren't going to further treat a dead body)?

  3. #253
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    Yep, lots of drips. I'd like to know exactly what the hospital has her on currently. I think I read in an earlier article she was on one drip and the ventilator and that was it. As her body starts to break down she will need more meds to maintain every aspect of organ function.
    I'd like to know who agreed to take her too. I don't want this crap going down in my neck of the woods. Although between them trying to get funded for "out of State transport" leads me to believe she's not coming to L.A. And in reality? She won't make it that far. The likelihood of any Doctor agreeing to do the necessary procedures to transport are slim to none. And even if some kook did agree, her heart will stop either during surgery or in transfer.

    I understand a Family having trouble accepting their Daughter is dead. But what they are doing her body a HUGE disservice by putting it through all of that. They thought organ transplant would be bad? That the hospital just wanted her dead to harvest organs and that was evil? I got news forthem. Making a spectacle of your daughter's dead body and dragging it around like some kind of Cabbage Patch Kid is the true evil. At least the hospital was trying to save lives by suggesting organ transplant. You're dragging around your dead daughter's body for the world to see and not allowing her a proper burial and to rest in peace.
    Last edited by Boston Babe 73; 12-28-2013 at 06:45 PM.
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  4. #254
    Senior Member Queena's Avatar
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    After reading this, I'm not sure what to believe.

    Shewmon compiled 150 documented cases of brain-dead patients whose hearts continued to beat, and whose bodies did not disintegrate, past one week’s time. In one remarkable case, the patient survived 20 years after brain death before succumbing to cardiac arrest.
    Brain-death advocates have always insisted that anyone who meets their criteria will fall apart quickly, and go quickly to meet the cardiopulmonary criteria. Yet Shewmon presents a litany of life processes that brain-dead patients continue to exhibit:

    • Cellular wastes continue to be eliminated, detoxified, and recycled.

    • Body temperature is maintained, though at a lower-than-normal temperature and with the help of blankets.

    • Wounds heal.

    • Infections are fought by the body.

    • Infections produce fever.

    • Organs and tissues continue to function.

    • Brain-dead pregnant women can gestate a fetus.

    • Brain-dead children mature sexually and grow proportionately.

    A final note: Brain-dead mothers can still donate their organs. And so, after suffering a neurological catastrophe, being declared dead, still having to endure several weeks of pregnancy, then giving birth via cesarean section, the patient can still be rolled off to have her organs removed. A woman’s work is never done.
    I'm not sure if I want to remain an organ donor. It sounds like some people are still alive. I guess this is a matter of how do we know when the soul/spirit leaves the body?

  5. #255
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    Could the hospital get in trouble if they kept her on the ventilator but didn't give the extra meds you refer to (since they aren't going to further treat a dead body)?
    I suspect the hospital is facing a malpractice suit in any case, and once you get a jury involved anything can happen. Just ask Casey Anthony...
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  6. #256
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    I've been hunting for any similar cases... I know lots of people are in coma's etc., but are you aware of other cases where dead people are maintained indefinitely on a ventilator?
    The only ones I know of are the pregnant women. I can't find the one of spoke of that happened in the Cleveland area. I know it had to probably be 20 years ago and it was on 20/20 or Dateline or one of those special shows. The mother became an organ donor once the baby was delivered.


    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    Could the hospital get in trouble if they kept her on the ventilator but didn't give the extra meds you refer to (since they aren't going to further treat a dead body)?
    I don't think so at this point. The court didn't recommend or require the hospital to continue any type of "treatment" other than what they are currently providing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73 View Post
    I'd like to know who agreed to take her too. I don't want this crap going down in my neck of the woods. Although between them trying to get funded for "out of State transport" leads me to believe she's not coming to L.A. And in reality? She won't make it that far. The likelihood of any Doctor agreeing to do the necessary procedures to transport are slim to none. And even if some kook did agree, her heart will stop either during surgery or in transfer.

    I understand a Family having trouble accepting their Daughter is dead. But what they are doing her body a HUGE disservice by putting it through all of that. They thought organ transplant would be bad? That the hospital just wanted her dead to harvest organs and that was evil? I got news forthem. Making a spectacle of your daughter's dead body and dragging it around like some kind of Cabbage Patch Kid is the true evil. At least the hospital was trying to save lives by suggesting organ transplant. You're dragging around your dead daughter's body for the world to see and not allowing her a proper burial and to rest in peace.

    I think it is definitely a possibility her heart will stop during a surgical procedure and/or transport. If I were the hospital, I would fight tooth and nail to not perform the procedures. That's just another lawsuit waiting to happen. The family will accuse the hospital of purposely "killing" Jahi.

    I don't think the family was approached regarding organ donation. I think we were just discussing it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Queena View Post
    After reading this, I'm not sure what to believe.
    I'm not sure if I want to remain an organ donor. It sounds like some people are still alive. I guess this is a matter of how do we know when the soul/spirit leaves the body?

    I've looked at many of the cases being floated around on the internet and I have not found one that proves any of the people were brain dead and woke back up. The stories I have read about are all from the person themselves or the family telling a story. I've seen a lot of "coma" "vegetative state" "basically brain dead" verbage used. Many people believe these terms can be used interchangeably and they can't. They are all different terms of which coma and vegetative states do have brain activity. Brain death shows absolutely no brain activity.

    Not one of the stories has shared their medical chart with documentation of a brain death pronouncement. Not one story provides a EEG or flow study that shows no brain activity or blood flow to the brain. These things are easily accessible to them as they are their medical records. Sharing these things would certainly prove they woke from the dead and prove brain death testing to have flaws and unreliable. So far, I have yet to see anyone provide supporting documentation that they were declared brain dead only to wake up and become a champion rodeo cowboy.

    Like I said, many people use the term brain dead incorrectly because they do not understand what it means. A doctor may have discussed that they suspected brain death when discussing prognosis with family, which is not a diagnosis. Something like this:

    Doc: Your loved one has suffered a terrible brain injury. The prognosis does not look good. If there is no improvements by tomorrow I am going to order some tests that will show us if your loved one has any brain activity and blood flow to the brain. I know this is hard for your family, but we have to consider your loved one may be brain dead. We will continue to monitor your loved one throughout the night for any changes and proceed with testing at 9am.

    9am comes and they do the brain testing and it actually SHOWS brain activity and blood flow to the body. The doc has another conversation with the family.

    Doc: The studies do show some brain activity and blood flow. This is great news. It shows your loved one is NOT brain dead as we originally thought we would see on the tests today. The prognosis still does not look good, but time will tell. We will continue to monitor your loved ones condition and give them time for their brain to heal. We may need to repeat the same testing if we do not see any improvement with in the next several days.

    The family: Oh lawd Jesus! My loved one came back from the dead! The doctors told me my loved one was brain dead and they would never walk again or be able to say my name. The doctor told me my loved one's brain deadness would make him sterile and now he is a NASA scientist with 12 kids!




    There is a thread on here about organ donation. I suck at search, but I'm sure someone is nice enough to link it for you. This is what kills me. Because of misinformation people are not going to want to donate their organs when they die.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

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    I think at this point when they reach the 5pm deadline, the family should just take her home and see what happens. Maybe then they will understand she is dead. I really do feel for them becausei really do think that these are parents who just can't or won't let go becausea miracle could happen. She's gone, she's passed.

    And as far as organ donation goes,it hasn't changed my mind in the slightest.
    Maybe I missed where our why that was brought up here.
    I sure she's probably already past the point of being able to donate isn't she?

    Morbid, when these cases happen don't the bodies start to fail anda fever hits abs it goes to high for any kind of donation process? Like the body starts basically ruining the organs.

  8. #258
    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    i don't know much about brain death, only what i've read recently, but it seems to me that if organ donation was a big deal because people are actually alive when they take the pieces, we would have heard about it by now. i mean really heard about it. as in: organ donation is outlawed and the diagnosis of brain death is revoked.

    if there was any scientific backing to the claim, it would be fairly easy to dig up research on cases of misdiagnosed brain death written by renowned scholars. medical journals would be updated and studies would be published.

    do people seriously rely on word of mouth for information without actually looking up official information?
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  9. #259
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by White trash bitchy blonde View Post
    I think at this point when they reach the 5pm deadline, the family should just take her home and see what happens. Maybe then they will understand she is dead. I really do feel for them becausei really do think that these are parents who just can't or won't let go becausea miracle could happen. She's gone, she's passed.

    And as far as organ donation goes,it hasn't changed my mind in the slightest.
    Maybe I missed where our why that was brought up here.
    I sure she's probably already past the point of being able to donate isn't she?

    Morbid, when these cases happen don't the bodies start to fail anda fever hits abs it goes to high for any kind of donation process? Like the body starts basically ruining the organs.
    If the family wants to take her home she will still need the ventilator. I'm not sure why they haven't discussed that option. Maybe they have, but haven't commented in the media about it.

    I'm glad it hasn't changed your mind regarding organ donation.

    Organ donation was only brought up because someone asked how long a dead person can be left on the vent and then I brought up the pregnant woman who became an organ donor after a significant amount of time being on the vent while she incubated a baby. I don't think organ donation was brought up to the family, though.

    I don't know if the OPO would even broach the family regarding donation at this point. I'm not sure, though. The OPO may feel the politics involved are not worth the possible repercussions. Or, they might feel the family would benefit because of their struggle. If they could see how many people Jahi could help it might help with closure with the family. But, I do think the possibility is probably long gone. I'm sure the OPO has access to her chart to evaluate whether or not she is a suitable candidate for donation. I want to clarify the only reason the OPO has access to her chart is because she is dead.

    A fever would not rule out organ donation, alone. Dead bodies on ventilators still get fevers, infections, have allergic reactions, etc. You don't have to have a brain for those things. But yes, organ failure is not uncommon with a dead person on a ventilator.

    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    i don't know much about brain death, only what i've read recently, but it seems to me that if organ donation was a big deal because people are actually alive when they take the pieces, we would have heard about it by now. i mean really heard about it. as in: organ donation is outlawed and the diagnosis of brain death is revoked.

    if there was any scientific backing to the claim, it would be fairly easy to dig up research on cases of misdiagnosed brain death written by renowned scholars. medical journals would be updated and studies would be published.

    do people seriously rely on word of mouth for information without actually looking up official information?

    There have been cases of accusations of organs being taken from people who are alive. A few years ago there was a case in Colorado and there is currently a case in New York where a disgruntled Coordinator has filed suit against New York Organ Donor Network, some hospitals, and doctors because he thinks they kill people for organs. He saw the spinal reflex that I have witnessed myself. That's what I think anyway.

    That's what I was getting at with attention being brought about by documented cases. The only things we do see are crazy conservative pro lifers (which cracks me up because organ donation IS GIVING LIFE) writing articles about their opinions and religious beliefs.

    And to your last statement. YES. A RESOUNDING YES. That and Fox News.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  10. #260
    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    well, i know people are making accusations, see: jahi mcmath, but do these accusations go anywhere? are they proven to be true?


    ETA: not jahi - they are making different accusations, i mean all the people commenting on the jahi case who have had their loved ones killed for organs...
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  11. #261
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    Yeah. I got confused. I could he sworn the Family accused the hospital of claiming brain death so they could harvest her organs but I was wrong. I just worked 12 hour days for the last three days. I'm out of it. My bad.
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  12. #262
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    well, i know people are making accusations, see: jahi mcmath, but do these accusations go anywhere? are they proven to be true?


    ETA: not jahi - they are making different accusations, i mean all the people commenting on the jahi case who have had their loved ones killed for organs...
    Oh, I totally understood where you were going and I agree. I was just making the comment before someone came in here all "I READ A STORY WHERE THEY ARE KILLING PEOPLE FOR THEIR GALL BLADDERS!"

    The point from my previous posts and in response to Queena is there has been no proof of any of it. Just people stating their opinions (as fact! where's crickets?! ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73 View Post
    Yeah. I got confused. I could he sworn the Family accused the hospital of claiming brain death so they could harvest her organs but I was wrong. I just worked 12 hour days for the last three days. I'm out of it. My bad.

    Oh, no worries! I can see why it got confusing. We did discuss organ donation with in this thread. We all get a little cornfuzzled sometimes.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  13. #263
    Senior Member Queena's Avatar
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    If you read the link that I posted, it states that people have been declared brain dead, and found to experience pain, and maintain bodily functions. The link I posted was from respected doctors, and most importantly, anesthesiologist. What happens if they take her off the ventilator and she breaths on her own?

    "I like my dead people cold, stiff, gray and not breathing," says Dr. Michael A. DeVita of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. "The brain dead are warm, pink and breathing."
    I'm not comfortable with the way that doctors came up with brain death.
    Although the Harvard criteria were based on zero patients and no experiments were conducted either with humans or animals, they soon became the standard for declaring people dead in several states, and in 1981, the Uniform Determination of Death Act (UDDA) was sanctioned by the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws. The UDDA is based on the Harvard Ad Hoc Committee?s report. That a four-page article defining death should be codified by all 50 states within 13 years is staggering..

    Here's what one doctor says
    Just as some of our ancestors saw the heart as the locus of the soul, today the medical establishment assumes that the brain is what defines humanity and that a functioning brain is vital to what is called a human being?s personhood. D. Alan Shewmon, a pediatric neurologist at UCLA who was originally pro?brain-death, now dismisses the idea. The most scientific approach one can take to death, he says, is to treat human beings like any other species. People should be judged biologically on whether they are alive or dead, not on some vague notion of personhood. There is no abstract notion of ?squirrelness,? for example, or ?gorillahood,? by which we determine the death of other species.
    Morbid T states.....I've looked at many of the cases being floated around on the internet and I have not found one that proves any of the people were brain dead and woke back up. The stories I have read about are all from the person themselves or the family telling a story. I've seen a lot of "coma" "vegetative state" "basically brain dead" verbage used. Many people believe these terms can be used interchangeably and they can't. They are all different terms of which coma and vegetative states do have brain activity. Brain death shows absolutely no brain activity.
    [b]Shewmon compiled 150 documented cases of brain-dead patients whose hearts continued to beat, and whose bodies did not disintegrate, past one week?s time. In one remarkable case, the patient survived 20 years after brain death before succumbing to cardiac arrest. Yet Shewmon presents a litany of life processes that brain-dead patients continue to exhibit:

    ? Cellular wastes continue to be eliminated, detoxified, and recycled.

    ? Body temperature is maintained, though at a lower-than-normal temperature and with the help of blankets.

    ? Wounds heal.

    ? Infections are fought by the body.

    ? Infections produce fever.

    ? Organs and tissues continue to function.

    ? Brain-dead pregnant women can gestate a fetus.

    ? Brain-dead children mature sexually and grow proportionately.

    So what drove the Harvard Ad Hoc Committee to turn back the calendar and construct a lower standard for death? To a growing number of scientific critics it appears that the committee was fixated on freeing up human organs for transplant. This is why I mentioned organ donors. Although, I don't think she would be eligible.

    Also from the same article.
    ?I like my dead people cold, stiff, gray, and not breathing,? says DeVita. ?The brain dead are warm, pink, and breathing. They look sick, not dead.?

    As someone who has had surgery, I found this tidbit very enlighting. Mark Schlesinger does not like his patients to feel pain during conventional surgery. He is chairman of the department of anesthesiology at Hackensack University Medical Center in New Jersey, and he points out that an anesthesiologist creates brain-dead patients every day: ?We give drugs to make them die. And we bring them back [when the surgery is completed].? A patient under anesthesia is one of the many growing exceptions to the Harvard criteria. He would meet the criteria on the surface, but would be disqualified (ruled still alive) if the examining doctor knew his system was full of drugs. ?The only test you fail under anesthesia,? Schlesinger says, ?is irreversibility.? That is, if an anesthetized patient has had his brain stem put down temporarily. A brain-dead organ donor?s brain stem is also down?but we do not know, given the limitations of the Harvard criteria and their focus entirely on the brain stem, what is going on with the donor?s cerebral cortex or everything beyond the brain stem.

    Last part, and I know this is long. Sorry.

    In another case, a 30-year-old patient with severe head trauma was declared brain dead by two doctors. Preparations were made to excise his organs. The on-call anesthesiologist noted that the beating-heart cadaver was breathing spontaneously, but the declaring physicians said that because he was not going to recover he could be declared dead. The harvest proceeded over the objections of the anesthesiologist, who saw the donor move and react to the scalpel with hypertension that had to be treated. It was in vain since the proposed liver recipient died before he could get the organ, which went untransplanted.

    And in a third instance, a young woman suffered seizures several hours after delivering her baby. A neurologist said it was a ?catastrophic neurologic event,? and she was readied for harvest. At that time the anesthesiologist found that she had small yet reactive pupils, weak corneal reflexes, and a weak gag reflex. After treatment, ?the patient coughed, grimaced, and moved all extremities.? She regained consciousness. She suffered significant neurologic deficits but was alert and oriented.

    Beyond pain, there are many surprising findings in a 1971 paper, ?Brain Death: A Clinical and Pathological Study,? published in the Journal of Neurosurgery. The Minnesota team that produced that article studied 25 moribund patients, conducting autopsies on them all and EEGs on some. They also checked for reflexes and found something unusual. Five of the 25 brain-dead people were still sexually responsive. The researchers gently stroked the ?nipple and areola? of all patients and got responses from five, four men and one woman. Then they stroked the skin at the root of the penis on the 18 male patients, and four responded with ?gentle seesaw movements of the penis.? The researchers felt this reaction was ?an incomplete or abortive form of penile erection.? Abortive or not, to the untrained eye it would appear to be a sign of life.



    Most of the opinions and information that I've stated I obtained from reading this article, I failed to link it yesterday. I didn't get this from anybody, I researched, read on my own, and formed my own opinion. http://discovermagazine.com/2012/may...s#.Ur_16fk_vT4

  14. #264
    Senior Member Queena's Avatar
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    My question is this, after being taken off the ventilator, if she breaths on her own, how does she die? Do they kill you? What happens when someone keeps breathing for a long length of time? This is all very disturbing. I'm going to watch kitten videos.

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    everyone stares at them til they die. generally.
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    Senior Member bermstalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queena View Post
    If you read the link that I posted, it states that people have been declared brain dead, and found to experience pain, and maintain bodily functions. The link I posted was from respected doctors, and most importantly, anesthesiologist. What happens if they take her off the ventilator and she breaths on her own?



    I'm not comfortable with the way that doctors came up with brain death.


    [/url]
    I snipped some of your post.
    I'm not sure, but I don't think the hospital has spoken about Jahi's condition and what happened pre-surgery and afterwards. I think most of the information we are receiving about Jahi is from her mother. For that reason alone, I question the whole story of Jahi recovering. Even the picture posted a page or two ago of Jahi holding her mother's hand is crazy- to my eyes it looks like the mother is holding Jahi's hand, and Jahi's hand is just laying there.

    I think what has happened is the term "brain dead"
    It's a word that gets thrown around for everybody that is in serious condition. Some people are really not thinking about what the term "brain dead" means. It's not the same as coma, unresponsive, head trauma, or a neurologic event. Even the two stories you posted about- the 30 year old man- he still died. He didn't come back to life. The dr. just said there were reflexes. Morbid already explained about that in earlier posts.
    The second story about the pregnant woman- the doctors never declared her brain dead. They just said she had "catastrophic neurologic event" which technically, could mean anything. I had a friend who's 13 year old daughter was seriously hurt in a 4-wheeler accident. She had Hydrocephalus along with a bunch of other injuries. She was in a coma for 2 weeks. It was very bad. The doctors told the parents she might die. I remember the dr's warned the parents that they were going to scan her brain....and to prepare b/c she might be brain dead. I remember how excited my friend was b/c the scan showed that the girl still had activity in her brain.

    From everything I've heard about Jahi's case- the drs have scanned her brain many times. Her brain is dead. When an organ dies, there's no bringing it back from decay and death. Especially when it's been dead and decaying for over 3 weeks now. I know an organ can sometimes repair itself ( like if you quit smoking- the lungs can heal over time) but I think if your lungs are covered in black stuff from smoking and they are already rotted- I don't think it can be fixed. (I'm no dr tho.)

    AND something from your article that made me WTF????

    Beyond pain, there are many surprising findings in a 1971 paper, ?Brain Death: A Clinical and Pathological Study,? published in the Journal of Neurosurgery. The Minnesota team that produced that article studied 25 moribund patients, conducting autopsies on them all and EEGs on some. They also checked for reflexes and found something unusual. Five of the 25 brain-dead people were still sexually responsive. The researchers gently stroked the ?nipple and areola? of all patients and got responses from five, four men and one woman. Then they stroked the skin at the root of the penis on the 18 male patients, and four responded with ?gentle seesaw movements of the penis.? The researchers felt this reaction was ?an incomplete or abortive form of penile erection.? Abortive or not, to the untrained eye it would appear to be a sign of life.

  17. #267
    Senior Member sarabei's Avatar
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    No disrespect to the family intended but they are bordering on bizzare. Would their child want to live like this? Sad and heart breaking as it is she is deceased. They should let her go and start the grieving process.

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    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73 View Post
    Yeah. I got confused. I could he sworn the Family accused the hospital of claiming brain death so they could harvest her organs but I was wrong. I just worked 12 hour days for the last three days. I'm out of it. My bad.
    I know I have seen these comments too... maybe in the Jahi facebook comments? or on some of the articles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Queena View Post
    If you read the link that I posted, it states that people have been declared brain dead, and found to experience pain, and maintain bodily functions. The link I posted was from respected doctors, and most importantly, anesthesiologist. What happens if they take her off the ventilator and she breaths on her own?

    Most of the opinions and information that I've stated I obtained from reading this article, I failed to link it yesterday. I didn't get this from anybody, I researched, read on my own, and formed my own opinion. http://discovermagazine.com/2012/may...s#.Ur_16fk_vT4
    Excellent link! Thank you. And a very respectable source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Queena View Post
    My question is this, after being taken off the ventilator, if she breaths on her own, how does she die? Do they kill you? What happens when someone keeps breathing for a long length of time? This is all very disturbing. I'm going to watch kitten videos.
    Great question.
    Quote Originally Posted by PunkerDuckie View Post
    everyone stares at them til they die. generally.
    Great answer! And so true, sadly.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabei View Post
    No disrespect to the family intended but they are bordering on bizzare. Would their child want to live like this? Sad and heart breaking as it is she is deceased. They should let her go and start the grieving process.
    This is my opinion too.

    Shakespeare said it best.
    ?A coward dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come.?

    ― William Shakespeare, Julius Caesar
    Quote Originally Posted by bermstalker View Post
    I had a friend who's 13 year old daughter was seriously hurt in a 4-wheeler accident. She had Hydrocephalus along with a bunch of other injuries. She was in a coma for 2 weeks. It was very bad. The doctors told the parents she might die. I remember the dr's warned the parents that they were going to scan her brain....and to prepare b/c she might be brain dead. I remember how excited my friend was b/c the scan showed that the girl still had activity in her brain.
    Don't leave us hanging? What happened to her did she recover? or...
    Last edited by puzzld; 12-29-2013 at 06:19 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
    Quote Originally Posted by nestlequikie View Post
    Why on earth would I smite you when I can ban you?

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    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queena View Post
    My question is this, after being taken off the ventilator, if she breaths on her own, how does she die? Do they kill you? What happens when someone keeps breathing for a long length of time? This is all very disturbing. I'm going to watch kitten videos.
    To answer your question more seriously, this seems to be pretty much "best case", and this patient wasn't brain dead, just nearly dead... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/ma...anted=all&_r=0
    There's a ton of good stuff at the link. But here's the part that answers your what happens next:

    Chris was in a coma, the doctor said, and in all likelihood had suffered severe, irreversible brain damage. He was breathing only with the help of a ventilator and would probably have a series of heart attacks in the night.

    ?First they asked us to let them pull the plug,? Judy recalled one recent afternoon, as we sat in the living room of the Coxes? house in a Memphis suburb. ?Then they tried getting us to sign a do-not-resuscitate order.? Without one, the doctor explained, hospital staff would be forced to revive Chris each time he started slipping away, which could mean cracking his ribs and shocking him with electricity. Even if they managed to keep his body alive, what was left of his brain would surely die in the days ahead.

    Wayne and Judy refused to sign. ?This is not some dog we?re talking about putting down,? Wayne shouted. ?This is our son.? Chris still lived with his parents. He was a good kid, a joker, but bashful, especially around girls. He liked playing basketball and fishing in the pond near his house. He was planning to take over the family repo business when Wayne retired in a few years. Before the A.T.V. accident, he?d never given them much trouble at all. He deserved every chance the hospital could give him.

    The heart attacks never came. Four days later, Chris woke up.

    It was not the awakening of Hollywood movies in which the patient comes to, just as he was, speaking full sentences and completely mobile. Three years later, Chris still cannot talk. Although he breathes on his own, his lungs battle a steady barrage of infections; a feeding tube provides all his sustenance, and his muscles have contracted into short, twisted knots. He can move only the slightest bit ? his fingers and eyelids twitch, but his arms and legs remain mostly immobile ? and his neck is not quite strong enough to hold up his head, which leans against a crescent-shaped support around his wheelchair headrest.

    Still, Wayne and Judy say that his cognition is improving. On good days, they say, he can respond to basic commands ? blink his eyes for yes, wiggle his finger for no, give a thumbs up when asked. Doctors agree that Chris has progressed beyond a vegetative state, to a hazy realm known as minimal consciousness. What that means ? what it says about his experience of the world around him or his prospects for further recovery ? is something they are still trying to figure out.

    Convinced that the son they know and love is still ?in there,? Chris?s parents have spent the past three years searching for a way to bring him back out. So far, their best hope has come from an unlikely source: Ambien. A growing body of case reports suggests that the popular sleep aid can have a profound ? and paradoxical ? effect on patients like Chris. Rather than put them to sleep, both Ambien and its generic twin, zolpidem, appear to awaken at least some of them. The early reports were so pronounced that until recently, doctors had a hard time believing them. Only now, more than a decade after the initial discovery, are they taking a closer look.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
    Quote Originally Posted by nestlequikie View Post
    Why on earth would I smite you when I can ban you?

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    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    "It was not the awakening of Hollywood movies in which the patient comes to, just as he was, speaking full sentences and completely mobile. Three years later, Chris still cannot talk. Although he breathes on his own, his lungs battle a steady barrage of infections; a feeding tube provides all his sustenance, and his muscles have contracted into short, twisted knots. He can move only the slightest bit ? his fingers and eyelids twitch, but his arms and legs remain mostly immobile ? and his neck is not quite strong enough to hold up his head, which leans against a crescent-shaped support around his wheelchair headrest."

    Seriously. Who would want to live like this? I wonder what he would say if he could talk. "Alive" and "Living " are two entirely different things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nic B View Post
    That is too pretty to be shoved up an ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nic B View Post
    You can take those Fleets and shove them up your ass



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    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Y'all know I have something to say about this.

    See you in a few hours while I compose a manifesto.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    Y'all know I have something to say about this.

    See you in a few hours while I compose a manifesto.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nic B View Post
    That is too pretty to be shoved up an ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nic B View Post
    You can take those Fleets and shove them up your ass



  23. #273
    Senior Member Queena's Avatar
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    I can understand both positions. If it were me, I wouldn't want my child to just lay there knowing she's brain dead. However, I have a little bit of medical knowledge, and I don't believe death is as bad as we fear it is. I can see how someone who doesn't understand the facts would take this. I have problems with the way they eventually kill a brain dead person. What happens if they keep breathing? What if it's days, or weeks? She isn't an organ donor, I don't think, so she wouldn't die during organ procurement which how I think other beating heart cadavers die. I think she's a beating heart cadaver, or pretty dead, as opposed to dead dead.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/ma...nted=all&_r=1&

    This article, and others like it are the very reason why I understand why the parents are so against her being declared dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    Don't leave us hanging? What happened to her did she recover? or...
    She recovered. She had to relearn all the basic stuff again. Even how to talk. Her hair is finally shoulder length now, but at first it was mostly shaved off b/c she kept having surgeries. She has facial tics and speech problems, but she did get to join her high school class this year. Her mom gives speeches at all the schools in the area on how kids should be safe and wear helmets. I've heard it been a very good program for our local town.

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