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Thread: Jahi McMath (13) died for real five years after she was declared brain dead following surgery complications

  1. #226
    Certified Grumple Bottoms Ron_NYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katerss View Post

    "If this Angel is brain dead how is she holding her mothers hand the way she is doing?Im in the healthcare field and I have never seen anyone who braindead able to respond like she is.They say my friend uncle is brain dead but he flickering his eyes and slightly opening them and moves his hand frm time to time.Thats not braindead."

    Oh my god, shut the fuck up. I'm sad this person works in 'the healthcare field'. This is exactly how my hand looks when someone holds my hand I'm not holding it back. Your hand doesn't just perfectly straight when someone picks up your hand to hold it, so clearly the fingers curl in a little bit and it's not even that much to say she is grasping her moms hand. Holy shit.

    And I can't believe they are posting the doctors number and harassing him to keep her 'alive'.


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  2. #227
    Senior Member *crickets*'s Avatar
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    Christopher Dolan @cbdlaw: Chris Dolan of The Dolan Law Firm represents the Family of Jahi McMath on CNN Piers Morgan Live http://t.co/DdeHIeOjft
    12/17/13 10:31 PM
    ^^ Here ^^ is when Dolan started tweeting about the case -- the first thing he did was go on Piers Morgan with the parents and he's been milking the case for publicity ever since. This guy is beyond despicable, feeding off these confused, grieving parents like a leech.

    He is a big-time personal injury atty in SF. His LinkedIn profile and website both brag that he has obtained "several multi-million dollar verdicts" from juries -- that's what he's all about, $$ and publicity.
    Last edited by *crickets*; 12-27-2013 at 09:47 PM.

  3. #228
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    I've heard of that too. Electricity still left in the wires. Very disturbing for Family to see. I think someone posted videos of that in the thread. Creepy!
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  4. #229
    has supermodel tits neenerneener's Avatar
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    all the talk about *giving the family time to come to terms with things* is pissing me off. people die from routine surgeries all the time. it sucks, but it happens. People also die unexpectedly from heart attacks, car accidents, strokes.....and they don't get extra time to *get used to it.* what makes these people so fucking special?
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  5. #230
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Who decides when to pull the plug when a person is pronounced brain dead? The answer to that question is, tragically, being hotly debated in Oakland, Calif., as a result of an elective surgery gone horribly wrong.

    She began bleeding, a lot. Jahi was rushed into the hospital?s intensive care unit. There she reportedly got transfusions and medicine to help stop the bleeding, but they did not help. She went into cardiac arrest. She went on life support. Doctors tried to revive her, but nothing worked. A few days later, brain scans and other tests done by doctors with no connection to the surgery showed no signs of activity in her brain. Media accounts say the tests were repeated again with no brain activity detected. Jahi had lost, irretrievably, all brain function. The doctors pronounced her brain dead.

    Her parents were devastated. They could not accept that their daughter had gone in for a simple surgery and somehow died. They refused to accept her death. They hired a lawyer and sent a letter demanding life-support to go on. They now say they want a judge to review any decision about life-support.

    This case is so sad it is almost beyond description. But that fact should not be a reason to take the view that we don?t know what to do when someone is pronounced brain dead.

    Brain dead is dead. It is as reliable a way to determine death as declaring that a person?s heart has forever stopped beating. In fact, due to the strict tests and procedures that have to be followed to determine brain death, it is probably even more error-free than pronouncing someone dead due to cardiac failure.

    Brain death is not a coma. People wake up from comas?they still have brain activity. Brain death is not a vegetative state. People in a vegetative state still have some, minimal brain activity. Those who are brain dead have lost all brain activity except the random firing of a few cells. They will not come back.

    In this way Jahi is different from the well-known case of Terri Schiavo, who was in a permanent vegetative state before she was removed from life support in 2005. I was an outspoken defender of her husband?s right to stop her treatment against the objections of her parents.

    Jahi?s story is, unfortunately, clear cut. Once brain death is declared, doctors have the right to stop treatments including life-support. There is no duty to treat the dead. No matter what the family might say, death is a clear line beyond which treatment need not and should not continue.

    So why are we hearing so much dispute about stopping the technology that is keeping Jahiu?s heart beating and breath going even if she is no longer here? It is because the hospital is trying hard to let the parents and family accept her death. They have the legal right to stop, but given all that has happened they feel a moral duty to try and honor the family?s wishes. The technology is not being turned off yet -- not because we don?t know who has the authority to do so. It is because those in authority are using the technology not to support a little girl but to support her family, who are so heart-broken by their loss they cannot yet accept it.

    Arthur Caplan, Ph.D., is the head of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center.
    http://www.nbcnews.com/health/bioeth...ath-2D11775879
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  6. #231
    Senior Member TupeloHoney's Avatar
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    This article includes the "heated exchange" mentioned earlier.

    http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sec...bay&id=9373813

    Jahi McMath's family scrambles to find facility for teen

    (Dec. 27, 2013) OAKLAND, Calif. (KGO) -- An Oakland family is scrambling to find a facility to care for Jahi McMath after they one they'd found fell through.

    The 13-year-old's family says they are now looking at facilities in Southern California. But with time running out and certain conditions that must be met, their attorney tells us they will likely be back in court Monday morning trying to get either a local or federal judge to extend Monday's 5 p.m. deadline.

    "There's justice in this case and that's finding peace," Children's Hospital Oakland spokesperson Sam Singer said.

    Jahi McMath's family attorney Christopher Dolan argued back saying, "Justice for you is pulling the plug."

    The emotions and words heated up Friday afternoon between Singer and Dolan with a heated exchange in front of the hospital.

    Singer: "You are not telling the truth."
    Dolan: "Real good job, real good job."
    Singer: "And not only are you not telling the truth, you're misleading the press, you're misleading the public, and you're misleading your clients."
    Dolan: "How am I misleading anybody?"

    Children's Hospital now says they will allow Jahi to be moved if her family meets certain conditions. Those include identifying the facility willing to accept someone declared brain-dead, providing transportation, and having the local coroner consent to the transfer.

    "If they can't do that, then I'm not sure that they've been truthful with the news media or the public about what the chances of anyone taking a deceased body on a ventilator," Singer said.

    Thursday night, McMath's uncle and attorney told reporters they had located a facility that would accept the brain-dead teen and keep her on a ventilator indefinitely. The family asked that a feeding tube and tracheotomy procedures be done on Jahi, but the hospital refused.

    The family attorney claims that that cost them a spot at a Bay Area facility.

    "What happened between last night and today is when we told the facility we couldn't get this done, we lost that bed," Dolan said.

    "We're still very optimistic, even after the statement that was released from the hospital, we're still very optimistic that we're going to be able to move Jahi," said Jahi's uncle, Omari Sealey.

    A Bay Area judge has ordered Children's Hospital to keep her on a ventilator, but only until 5 p.m. Monday.
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    I will out think the fucking pants off of you and you would thank me for helping you out of them.

  7. #232
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    Singer: "You are not telling the truth."
    Dolan: "Real good job, real good job."
    Singer: "And not only are you not telling the truth, you're misleading the press, you're misleading the public, and you're misleading your clients."
    Dolan: "How am I misleading anybody?"

    *insert applause*

    This Lawyer is SLIME. Someone needs to take his license to practice away.
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  8. #233
    Senior Member bermstalker's Avatar
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    This whole story has become so fucking murky. That poor girl.

    What place is going to take this girl? I suspect nobody will. They will be to worried thinking about the potential lawsuits and such. We all know there are shady places that would take a dead body and keep it hooked up forever on a machine, but I highly doubt any of those places wants this kind of case. I can't see how any court can make the hospital do surgeries on this girl....and even if the court could force the hospital...what doctor in his right mind would preform any kind of surgery on this girl?

    [QUOTE]He also said the Alameda County coroner needed to sign off on the move ?since we are dealing with the body of a person who has been declared legally dead.?[/QUOTE]

    ETA: Mom wrote an open letter

    Now Winkfield, who is asking for prayers because she believes that miracles do happen, has written an open letter to the world about the nightmare she has undergone as a mother:
    I am a mother. She is my daughter. I am alive. Despite what they say, she is alive. I can touch her, she is warm. She responds to my touch. I can love her – I can feel her love. When she was in my belly I fell in love with her. Her heartbeat for the beginning of her life was my heartbeat until God, through a miracle, sparked her heart into existence. Given time, I know he will spark her brain awake.

    She is Jahi, a name that means known by many. If she knew about all this attention she would blush. She is very shy.
    My daughter sits on life support. I feel like she is on death row. The clock is ticking — ticking down. Children’s Hospital Oakland says she is dead. She was not dead when I brought her here on December 9th for a routine tonsillectomy. I put her in their hands, now they want to wash their hands of her.
    Jahi had an operation. I was told it went well. Then she started bleeding from her mouth. They gave me a cup for her to bleed into and said it was normal. She bled more and more. I couldn’t keep up with it. I asked for help, they gave me a bigger bucket. She bled more. They did not answer our pleas for a doctor. Her surgeon never came back. She had a heart attack and her heart stopped beating. Then they came — then. They shocked her back into life. Now they say she is dead.

    Before the surgery she said I am scared mommy. I said why Jahi? She said I am afraid I won’t wake up. I told her it was going to be fine, it was a simple procedure. I should have listened to her.
    She is on a respirator — with air she lives, her heart beats, her kidneys produce urine, she is warm and soft. They have been pressuring me to “pull the plug.” I can’t. I won’t. I can’t let them kill my baby a second time.
    I am fighting for her life. Each breath the vent gives her one more chance to live and gets her one step closer to the hospital’s deadline. What a word. I never thought they could tell me, her mother, they were going to pull the plug, take her body to the morgue and send us home on Christmas while she lays in a freezer. She is warm now. I want my baby to be warm. We need time.
    The Hospital says she is legally dead. That they can legally stop her breathing. I am not a lawyer. We called many in the middle of the night Monday as they were coming to unplug her Tuesday night. One answered the call. We stopped them. Every day is a struggle. We fight for Jahi. We have a temporary restraining order until Monday – then the Judge can say my baby is legally dead and Children’s can unplug her. It doesn’t matter what I say. I never thought I would have to go to court to get a hospital to treat my child.

    Hold your children tight. Tell them you love them. I tell my daughter over and over. I know she can hear me. If she has any brain activity when they do the independent tests she will be kept alive. Pray for my daughter Jahi, pray that she will get better so they don’t kill her. Pray for me, mothers, that my love can bring her life once more.

    http://newsone.com/2817289/jahi-mcma...r-open-letter/
    Last edited by bermstalker; 12-28-2013 at 12:10 AM.

  9. #234
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    There is so much to think about with this kind of case. I'm fascinated with the nature of life and death... That's how I ended up here at the Hotel MDS.

    1. So often death is so very quick. You're alive, then along comes a metaphorical train wreck and you're dead. It could be massive trauma or something tiny like a misplaced clump of cells in your blood stream. Other times death is way too slow. A person who wants only to be relieved of agony for some reason keeps on breathing, their heart keeps pumping and they live on, sometimes for years with no end in sight.

    Now Jahi's family is praying for a miracle. "Spark her brain back to life!" I wonder if they will ever come to understand they may have had their miracle? They had a chance to say goodbye. Certainly many people pray for just one more hour with their loved one.

    I admire their ferocity in fighting for their daughter, I just think they are fighting a battle that's already been lost... and this brings to mind another thing. Why is it that the people who most adamantly insist the heaven exists, that God takes an active, day to day part in our lives to the extent that he can be badgered into "saving" one little girl; are so afraid of death? If you believe that God is real, that God has a plan, that God loves you and yours, and will be taking you home to sit at his right hand? Why are you being so uncooperative? Let God have the child, he seems to want her very badly.

    I could understand this better if the family were atheists of the yolo school. "I'm never gonna see my baby again, so you ARE NOT taking her from me.
    Quote Originally Posted by bermstalker View Post
    what doctor in his right mind would preform any kind of surgery on this girl?
    2. I assume they'd have to find one of the rabid right to life types, like Dr. Byrne.

    I brought her here on December 9th for a routine tonsillectomy. I put her in their hands, now they want to wash their hands of her.
    3. One really needs to consider routine, elective surgery carefully. "We do hundreds of these, every year and only 1 or 2% go bad seems like good odds, but if you end up in that 2%? Things can be very grim indeed. How bad was the sleep apnea? Could she have outgrown it? Would diet & weigh loss or a CPAP machine have helped? Too late for that now of course but next time the doctor suggest a simple, routine surgery, I hope people consider Jahi, I know I will. And maybe that's her gift to us all? When they give you those routine forms and tell you "brain injury and death are possible" we need to believe the possible good outcome really does outweigh the negative.

    4. Years ago I had gall bladder surgery. Major stuff at the time. Hospital for a week. Off work for six weeks. A couple months after I had my op they started doing the lap surgery here in town. I've kicked myself for not holding out a little longer.

    I wonder how they'll be treating sleep apnea 5-10 years from now?
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
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  10. #235
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    I completely agree with 99% of why puzzld says. Except for one point. Everyone is calling her surgery "simple " and "routine". Wrong on both accounts. It may have been considered routine at one point. When I young they were yanking tonsils left and right. Then the complications started popping up. Kids were dying. They stopped. Ever notice that having a Tonsillectomy is rare these days?

    And in Jahi's case, it wasn't simple. They weren't just doing a Tonsillectomy. They were removing tissue by the adnoids and nasal cavity.

    I just wish the Attorney and Family were truthful about that fact. I understand that they're distraught. But they're doing everything possible to make this Hospital look like a house of monsters. When in reality they've been more than accomodating.
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  11. #236
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73 View Post
    I completely agree with 99% of why puzzld says. Except for one point. Everyone is calling her surgery "simple " and "routine". Wrong on both accounts. It may have been considered routine at one point. When I young they were yanking tonsils left and right. Then the complications started popping up. Kids were dying. They stopped. Ever notice that having a Tonsillectomy is rare these days?

    And in Jahi's case, it wasn't simple. They weren't just doing a Tonsillectomy. They were removing tissue by the adnoids and nasal cavity.
    Yes, something else to consider. Surgeons believe in surgery. Make sure you understand the risks, benefits and alternatives. When I was deciding on a treatment plan for my breast cancer the surgeons were all in favor of cutcutcut. But my own research and other specialists I consulted suggested that a much smaller surgery, radiation and hormone treatments had as good an outcome re. the cancer and a better outcome in the quality of life division.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
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  12. #237
    Senior Member morbid1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *crickets* View Post
    ^^ Here ^^ is when Dolan started tweeting about the case -- the first thing he did was go on Piers Morgan with the parents and he's been milking the case for publicity ever since. This guy is beyond despicable, feeding off these confused, grieving parents like a leech.

    He is a big-time personal injury atty in SF. His LinkedIn profile and website both brag that he has obtained "several multi-million dollar verdicts" from juries -- that's what he's all about, $$ and publicity.
    THIS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73 View Post
    Singer: "You are not telling the truth."
    Dolan: "Real good job, real good job."
    Singer: "And not only are you not telling the truth, you're misleading the press, you're misleading the public, and you're misleading your clients."
    Dolan: "How am I misleading anybody?"

    *insert applause*

    This Lawyer is SLIME. Someone needs to take his license to practice away.
    The "public argument" was sickening to watch. I drive past Childrens hospital every day on the way to and from work and was surprised when I started to see news vans showing up in front of the hospital. I still dont understand why this particular story has gotten the coverage it has. In the 7+ years I have had to drive past the hospital I have never seen so many news vans -- last night one was parked on the sidewalk. I think thats really saying something given the amount of violence just in the local area, but also this hospital is also the only Bay Area level 1 pediatric trauma center -- if your kid is sick or injured this is where you want them to go. The news coverage is disparaging to the hospital and while I respect Jahis privacy I wish the family would give permission to the hospital to speak about her case.

  13. #238
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    There is so much to think about with this kind of case. I'm fascinated with the nature of life and death... That's how I ended up here at the Hotel MDS.

    1. So often death is so very quick. You're alive, then along comes a metaphorical train wreck and you're dead. It could be massive trauma or something tiny like a misplaced clump of cells in your blood stream. Other times death is way too slow. A person who wants only to be relieved of agony for some reason keeps on breathing, their heart keeps pumping and they live on, sometimes for years with no end in sight.

    Now Jahi's family is praying for a miracle. "Spark her brain back to life!" I wonder if they will ever come to understand they may have had their miracle? They had a chance to say goodbye. Certainly many people pray for just one more hour with their loved one.

    I admire their ferocity in fighting for their daughter, I just think they are fighting a battle that's already been lost... and this brings to mind another thing. Why is it that the people who most adamantly insist the heaven exists, that God takes an active, day to day part in our lives to the extent that he can be badgered into "saving" one little girl; are so afraid of death? If you believe that God is real, that God has a plan, that God loves you and yours, and will be taking you home to sit at his right hand? Why are you being so uncooperative? Let God have the child, he seems to want her very badly.

    I could understand this better if the family were atheists of the yolo school. "I'm never gonna see my baby again, so you ARE NOT taking her from me.


    2. I assume they'd have to find one of the rabid right to life types, like Dr. Byrne.



    3. One really needs to consider routine, elective surgery carefully. "We do hundreds of these, every year and only 1 or 2% go bad seems like good odds, but if you end up in that 2%? Things can be very grim indeed. How bad was the sleep apnea? Could she have outgrown it? Would diet & weigh loss or a CPAP machine have helped? Too late for that now of course but next time the doctor suggest a simple, routine surgery, I hope people consider Jahi, I know I will. And maybe that's her gift to us all? When they give you those routine forms and tell you "brain injury and death are possible" we need to believe the possible good outcome really does outweigh the negative.

    4. Years ago I had gall bladder surgery. Major stuff at the time. Hospital for a week. Off work for six weeks. A couple months after I had my op they started doing the lap surgery here in town. I've kicked myself for not holding out a little longer.

    I wonder how they'll be treating sleep apnea 5-10 years from now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73 View Post
    I completely agree with 99% of why puzzld says. Except for one point. Everyone is calling her surgery "simple " and "routine". Wrong on both accounts. It may have been considered routine at one point. When I young they were yanking tonsils left and right. Then the complications started popping up. Kids were dying. They stopped. Ever notice that having a Tonsillectomy is rare these days?

    And in Jahi's case, it wasn't simple. They weren't just doing a Tonsillectomy. They were removing tissue by the adnoids and nasal cavity.

    I just wish the Attorney and Family were truthful about that fact. I understand that they're distraught. But they're doing everything possible to make this Hospital look like a house of monsters. When in reality they've been more than accomodating.

    Absofuckinglutely to both of these posts.


    I fear the court will force a surgeon to perform the procedures required for transfer to a long term facility.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  14. #239
    Senior Member Sarahric13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73 View Post
    This leads me to believe that they weren't told the whole truth about the girl's condition. Of course they backed out. What Nursing Home is going to take up a perfectly good bed for a "patient" who has No insurance. They are well aware that she won't be covered.
    This.

    I'm an LTC administrator...plus the liability of her not having a G/PEG-tube or trach...plus the lack of trained staff.

    Plus she's dead--I have a daughter her age. This is awful all the way around...but if my Moo's quality of life was compromised like this, that the best her life to offer would be machines so I could hold her hand for the short-term? How selfish of me to do that to her. Harder to take them off than to put them on...

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    Senior Member DiaDeLosMuertos's Avatar
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    I'm guessing her sleep and apnea issue are from her weight. Wonder if diet and exercise were ever considered before going to surgery as the only option. As a mother, I would never put my child through an unnecessary procedure. Attorneys that lead their clients down a road of deception and for selfish reasons should be disbarred.
    Jenn

  16. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    Absofuckinglutely to both of these posts.


    I fear the court will force a surgeon to perform the procedures required for transfer to a long term facility.
    To me that's kind of like forcing a defendant to stay with someone they are trying to divorce. I would be surprised if they could make a surgeon do the actual surgery. I'm sure they could tell the hospital that they should do it, but to force an individual to actually perform the act is a whole different story. This story keeps taking twists and turns, so who knows though.

  17. #242
    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    Jahi McMath: Family finds facility to care for girl declared brain-dead (+video)
    A nursing home in southern California has agreed to provide long-term care for Jahi McMath, the 13-year-old girl who underwent tonsil surgery and was later declared brain-dead.

    By Associated Press / December 28, 2013

    OAKLAND, CALIF.

    An attorney says a nursing home has agreed to provide long-term care for a 13-year-old girl, who has been declared brain dead but whose family maintains is still alive.

    After another nursing home backed out, a southern California facility agreed to care for Jahi McMath, a 13-year-old girl, who has been declared brain dead but whose family maintains is still alive.

    A southern California facility agreed after another nursing home backed out, the family's lawyer, Christopher Dolan, said Friday.

    He wouldn't provide its name, saying "we're afraid they'll be inundated with press" and decide to back out as well.

    Time is short for the family, as Alameda County Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo on Tuesday ruled that the Children's Hospital Oakland may remove Jahi McMath from life support at 5 p.m. Monday unless an appeal is filed.

    Jahi underwent tonsil surgery at Children's Hospital on Dec. 9 to treat sleep apnea. After she awoke from the operation, her family said, she started bleeding heavily from her mouth and went into cardiac arrest. Doctors at Children's Hospital concluded the girl was brain dead on Dec. 12 and wanted to remove her from life support. The family said they believe she is still alive.

    Before Jahi can be transferred, she must undergo two more medical procedures — the insertion of a breathing tube and a feeding tube, both of which would be necessary for her long-term care but which the nursing home is not equipped to perform.

    The hospital has refused to perform the procedures.

    "Children's Hospital Oakland does not believe that performing surgical procedures on the body of a deceased person is an appropriate medical practice," David Durand, its chief of pediatrics, said in a statement Thursday.

    Douglas Straus, a lawyer for the hospital, said in a letter made public Friday that before the hospital would comply with the family's request to move Jahi, it would need to speak directly with officials at any nursing home to make sure they understand her condition, "including the fact that Jahi is brain dead" — and to discuss needed preparations, including transportation.

    "Children's Hospital will of course continue to do everything legally and ethically permissible to support the family of Jahi McMath. In that regard, Children's will allow a lawful transfer of Jahi's body in its current state to another location if the family can arrange such a transfer and Children's can legally do so," Straus wrote in the letter.

    He also said the Alameda County coroner needed to sign off on the move "since we are dealing with the body of a person who has been declared legally dead."

    The letter was sent to Dolan after Dolan said he was preparing a federal civil rights lawsuit to force the hospital to outfit Jahi with breathing and feeding tubes. He said the hospital's refusal to cooperate violated her family's religious, due process rights and privacy rights.

    In fulfillment of the hospital's request, Dolan said he had held a three-way conference call Friday with Straus and the director of the nursing home.

    Dolan also told the Associated Press on Friday that he had already obtained signed consent from the coroner for Jahi's transfer.

    The Alameda County Coroner's Bureau said it had no comment.

    Jahi's uncle, Omari Sealey, said earlier on Friday the family was in talks with three nursing homes — two in Los Angeles and one in New York — that might be willing to take her.

    The girl's relatives had announced on Thursday that they had found a nursing home in the San Francisco Bay Area that was willing to care for the girl if she had the tubes. Within hours, the hospital's chief of pediatrics issued a statement saying Children's would not cooperate because it "does not believe that performing surgical procedures on the body of a deceased person is an appropriate medical practice."

    Upon learning of the hospital's position, that facility backed out.

    Dolan said he is hoping the hospital officials will change their mind about the surgery after speaking with the nursing home officials.

    If they don't, he said, the family's options are slim, but he is hoping the Alameda County judge will give them some more time Monday to find a doctor willing to perform the surgeries.
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    Jahi McMath: Family trying to raise money to get 13-year-old airlifted out of state
    By Elisabeth Nardi


    Contra Costa Times

    POSTED: 12/28/2013 08:30:50 AM PST | UPDATED: 7 MIN. AGO

    On Friday, Jahi's mother Nailah Winkfield created the "Jahi McMath Fund" on popular fundraising web site Go Fund Me.

    On the site, Winkfield writes: "I am raising money for my daughter Jahi McMath so that she can be airlifted to a hospital out of state. Her insurance does not cover it and Children's Hospital is going to remove her off life support if can't get her out of this hospital."

    The possibility of an out-of-state hospital differs from reports earlier Friday when Jahi's family and attorney said that there was a long-term care facility in Southern California that would take her. Early Saturday morning no one could be reached for comment.

    Jahi underwent tonsil surgery and two other procedures to remove tissue from her nose and throat, to treat her sleep apnea. Complications following the operation resulted in loss of all brain function, according to six doctors who evaluated her. Jahi has been on a ventilator at Children's Hospital Oakland ever since.

    So far the fund has raised more than $3,100 from 121 donors. The goal is to raise $20,000. Some donors have left messages on the site saying their prayers are with the family and donations seem to be coming from all over the country with one woman saying she was from New Mexico. Many on the site urged Winkfield to keep fighting saying miracles can happen.

    "Children recover every day from brain injury she just needs a chance! Praying for your family," read one post from Kathy Clark.

    The family faces a court-ordered 5 p.m. Monday deadline to pull Jahi off her ventilator at Children's Hospital. Jahi's family does not accept that she is dead and has been scrambling to find a long-term care facility. But hospital officials said Friday while it would send the girl to such a facility it wouldn't install a trachea or gastric feeding tube necessary for such a transfer.

    Other experts say it might be hard for the family to find any doctor to perform the procedures on Jahi with her brain-dead status.

    To view the fundraising page visit www.gofundme.com/jahi-mcmath or contact the family at Jahi McMath, P.O. Box 5128, Oakland, CA 94605-0128.

    Contact Elisabeth Nardi at 925-952-2617. Follow her at Twitter.com/enardi10.



    this one contradicts the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by songbirdsong View Post
    "Say, you know who could handle this penis? MY MOTHER."

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    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by songbirdsong View Post
    "Say, you know who could handle this penis? MY MOTHER."

  20. #245
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Two young females, both brain dead without warning, remain on ventilators while their devastated families challenge the judgments of their hospitals.

    In one situation, the family believes a miracle is possible, and wants to prolong the patient's biological functioning. In the other case, the family wants to disconnect the patient to honor her wishes. But both families are facing obstacles.

    The way we talk about neurological death has created a misperception, ethicists say: that "brain death" is somehow not as final as cardiac death, even though, by definition, it is.

    The term "life support" exacerbates the problem, too, because those who are brain dead do not have a life to sustain, said Arthur Caplan, director of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center. This seems to be a fundamental problem in both cases that have entered the national spotlight, he said.

    "I think these cases have been botched, horribly," he said. "They're giving the impression that dead people can come back to life."

    Brain dead, but kept alive

    Here's a quick overview of the two situations:

    Doctors in Oakland, California, declared Jahi McMath, 13, to be brain dead on December 12, three days after she underwent surgery to remove her tonsils, adenoids and extra sinus tissue, which doctors thought were causing sleep apnea.

    She suffered complications from the procedure, which experts have told CNN is commonly done, but not routine.
    Family works to move brain dead teen
    Mom: I feel like Jahi is on death row
    Man wants pregnant wife off life support

    A judge concluded Tuesday that Jahi is brain dead, but ruled that Jahi will remain on life support at least until December 30. The family of the teen is seeking to move her to another facility for treatment, the girl's uncle, Omari Sealy, told reporters Thursday.

    Moving her would require the insertion of tracheostomy and gastrostomy tubes, family attorney Christopher Dolan said.

    However, hospital Chief of Pediatrics David Durand said the judge didn't authorize a transfer to another facility.

    "Children's Hospital Oakland does not believe that performing surgical procedures on the body of a deceased person is an appropriate medical practice. Children's Hospital Oakland continues to extend its wishes for peace and closure to Jahi McMath's family," Durand said.

    When routine surgeries go wrong

    But Jahi's mother, Nailah Winkfield, said on Friday, "I would probably need for my child's heart to stop to show me that she was dead. Her heart is still beating, so there's still life there."

    In Texas, a hospital and family of a brain dead patient also clash over continuing life support, but the situation is further complicated because the woman is pregnant.

    Marlise Munoz, 33, has been unresponsive since November 26, when her husband, Erick Munoz, discovered her on the kitchen floor at their home, said her mother, Lynne Machado. The family says she is being kept alive on a ventilator at John Peter Smith Hospital in Fort Worth, Texas.

    Her family says she would not want her life prolonged by a machine, but Texas state law says "life-sustaining treatment" cannot be withheld from a pregnant patient, regardless of her wishes or the age of the fetus.

    "At all times, we will follow the law as it is applicable to health care in the state of Texas," said J.R. Labbe, vice president of communications and community affairs for JPS Health Network, which oversees the hospital.

    Life and death

    These cases may make you think of Terri Schiavo, a brain-damaged woman who died in 2005 after living on a feeding tube for more than a decade. Schiavo was the subject of a lengthy legal battle between her parents and her husband, Michael Schiavo, who maintained she wouldn't have wanted to live in a "persistent vegetative state."

    But "persistent vegatative state" means the brain still has some activity, even though the patient is in a deep state of unconsciousness. "Coma" is another word for this, according to the National Institutes of Health.

    Both these situations are distinct from brain death -- according to the Uniform Determination of Death Act, an individual is dead when he or she "has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem."

    "It seems like there seems to continue to be confusion about what it means to die using neurologic criteria," said Cynda Hylton Rushton, professor of clinical ethics at Johns Hopkins University.

    Rushton suggests, in fact, that this phrase "die using neurological criteria" be used instead of "brain death," to emphasize what it means.

    Terms such as "mechanical support" or "artificial machine support" could be used to refer to sustaining the functioning of a brain dead person, Caplan said.

    "No one wants to take away 'life support,' " Caplan said.

    Unpacking the issues

    In Caplan's view, it doesn't do any families any good if hospitals ask them about mechanically continuing biological function in a brain dead patient. He says doctors should be more transparent about the finality of brain death.

    "It just creates the possibility of a terrible scenario like the one that's unfolded (in Jahi's case), where the parents don't really understand and then start to resist any removal of machines because they just want to hope that the worst possible thing did not happen," he said. "I don't think it's kind to not be clear when death happens."

    In the Texas case, Caplan noted, where it's the family against a law, if Munoz is indeed brain dead, she is not, by definition, receiving "life-sustaining treatment."

    It seems to Caplan that the law's intention was not to continue treating the dead.

    "That the heart can continue breathing in a body like this is unnerving to people," said Kenneth Goodman, director of the Bioethics Program at the University of Miami.

    One might argue that the fetus is alive, and is the one on "life support." But that opens up a lot of other issues: Will the fetus be viable? Was it damaged by the mother's lack of oxygen when she lost consciousness? Right now it is 18 weeks old; Machado said doctors will know more about its health at 22 to 24 weeks.

    The Texas law in this case "imposes the view of the state on the adult pregnant woman, as to whether or not the fetus counts as a human being," Peter Singer, professor of bioethics at Princeton University, said.

    Starting new dialogues

    The misunderstanding surrounding cases such as Jahi's and Munoz's signals a need for a national conversation about brain death and levels of brain functioning, Caplan said.

    Although there are scientific criteria for "brain death," the concept contains a moral judgment, Singer said. When viewed in connection to organ transplantation, there seems to be a value assessment that, for instance, the organs of a brain-dead person should be used to save someone else's life.

    Organ transplantation and the idea of brain death have different origins, researchers argue in a 2007 paper in the Journal of Medical Ethics, but they became linked in 1963, when the first kidney transplant with a brain dead donor was performed.

    Had these procedures with brain dead patients not emerged until more recent decades, in a cultural climate rife with right-to-life debates, perhaps there would have been more public discussion and controversy about the definition of "brain death," Singer said.

    The public might have taken a closer look at what matters: Is it the "person," which exists by virtue of a functioning brain, or the organism?

    "If you think that somehow what is precious, or what has a right to life, is simply an organism, then I suppose you might say, 'Well, this is not dead,'" he said. "This organism is still able to function. It needs medical support, but of course there's a lot of people who need medical support."

    Jahi's family has said they are hoping for a miracle. Such cases also bring up the question of what is society's responsibility to accommodate requests based on faith, Rushton said.

    "We really need to engage in a new dialogue that takes us out of the debate of faith into science, into a conversation about what are the limits of our human knowledge and technology, and how do we accept the fact that all of us will eventually die?" Rushton said. "These are the kinds of situations where there are no easy answers."

    Medicine can't cure everything, but we act as though death is optional, she said.

    We may have technology called "life support," but even that can't last forever.
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/28/health...t=hp_inthenews
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    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
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  21. #246
    Senior Member Queena's Avatar
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    At this point I'm wondering if they know something we don't know. Why would a LTC facility take a person that's brain dead? Maybe there is SOME activity in her brain. I surely hope they're not working on a hope, wish and a prayer. Not saying that it can't work, but the odds are so high, I just don't think it's possible. I feel for them.

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    These parents simply cannot let go of their children. They seem to me to be very in denial that there could or may be any hope for her to live.

    I think they are blinded by thier pain of their daughter who we all know is basically dead but is breathing because of a machine. If it werent for them being able to see her 'breathing' on a machine, then maybe reality would set in.

    I would have a hard time pulling a plug on my child also but they need to let go.

  23. #248
    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queena View Post
    At this point I'm wondering if they know something we don't know. Why would a LTC facility take a person that's brain dead? Maybe there is SOME activity in her brain. I surely hope they're not working on a hope, wish and a prayer. Not saying that it can't work, but the odds are so high, I just don't think it's possible. I feel for them.
    In my opinion, any LTC that agrees to take her isn't a good LTC. The only nursing home that will agree to this is probably the bottom of the barrel. Because any respectful LTC knows that a breathing and feeding tube is not the only care required to sustain a dead body. NO nursing home is equipped to care for someone who is brain dead. Are they going to hire a crash team? Or are they expecting the CNAs to have the same medical knowledge as Doctors? Brain Damage and Brain Dead affect the rest of the body differently. The Liver, Kidneys....they are shutting down if they aren't already there. This is assanine.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Nic B View Post
    That is too pretty to be shoved up an ass.
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  24. #249
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    To me that's kind of like forcing a defendant to stay with someone they are trying to divorce. I would be surprised if they could make a surgeon do the actual surgery. I'm sure they could tell the hospital that they should do it, but to force an individual to actually perform the act is a whole different story. This story keeps taking twists and turns, so who knows though.
    I think it's definitely ethically and morally wrong, but with this case, I really am not surprised with anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    Snipped for space

    By Associated Press / December 28, 2013

    OAKLAND, CALIF.

    An attorney says a nursing home has agreed to provide long-term care for a 13-year-old girl, who has been declared brain dead but whose family maintains is still alive.

    Before Jahi can be transferred, she must undergo two more medical procedures ? the insertion of a breathing tube and a feeding tube, both of which would be necessary for her long-term care but which the nursing home is not equipped to perform.

    The hospital has refused to perform the procedures.

    "Children's Hospital Oakland does not believe that performing surgical procedures on the body of a deceased person is an appropriate medical practice," David Durand, its chief of pediatrics, said in a statement Thursday.

    Douglas Straus, a lawyer for the hospital, said in a letter made public Friday that before the hospital would comply with the family's request to move Jahi, it would need to speak directly with officials at any nursing home to make sure they understand her condition, "including the fact that Jahi is brain dead" ? and to discuss needed preparations, including transportation.

    "Children's Hospital will of course continue to do everything legally and ethically permissible to support the family of Jahi McMath. In that regard, Children's will allow a lawful transfer of Jahi's body in its current state to another location if the family can arrange such a transfer and Children's can legally do so," Straus wrote in the letter.

    He also said the Alameda County coroner needed to sign off on the move "since we are dealing with the body of a person who has been declared legally dead."

    The letter was sent to Dolan after Dolan said he was preparing a federal civil rights lawsuit to force the hospital to outfit Jahi with breathing and feeding tubes. He said the hospital's refusal to cooperate violated her family's religious, due process rights and privacy rights.

    In fulfillment of the hospital's request, Dolan said he had held a three-way conference call Friday with Straus and the director of the nursing home.

    Dolan also told the Associated Press on Friday that he had already obtained signed consent from the coroner for Jahi's transfer.

    The Alameda County Coroner's Bureau said it had no comment.


    Dolan said he is hoping the hospital officials will change their mind about the surgery after speaking with the nursing home officials.

    If they don't, he said, the family's options are slim, but he is hoping the Alameda County judge will give them some more time Monday to find a doctor willing to perform the surgeries.
    I wonder if this lawyer is just full of shit.

    Also, I think if there were any doctors willing to perform the procedures they would have come forward by now. I don't think the lawyer would keep that secret until Monday. I think he would be all in the hospitals face like, "ha ha, I found a doctor that WILL do it, mothafuckas!"

    If they do find a doctor that is willing, they would need privileges at the current hospital.

    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    Jahi McMath: Family trying to raise money to get 13-year-old airlifted out of state
    By Elisabeth Nardi

    POSTED: 12/28/2013 08:30:50 AM PST | UPDATED: 7 MIN. AGO

    On Friday, Jahi's mother Nailah Winkfield created the "Jahi McMath Fund" on popular fundraising web site Go Fund Me.

    On the site, Winkfield writes: "I am raising money for my daughter Jahi McMath so that she can be airlifted to a hospital out of state. Her insurance does not cover it and Children's Hospital is going to remove her off life support if can't get her out of this hospital."

    The possibility of an out-of-state hospital differs from reports earlier Friday when Jahi's family and attorney said that there was a long-term care facility in Southern California that would take her. Early Saturday morning no one could be reached for comment.

    Jahi underwent tonsil surgery and two other procedures to remove tissue from her nose and throat, to treat her sleep apnea. Complications following the operation resulted in loss of all brain function, according to six doctors who evaluated her. Jahi has been on a ventilator at Children's Hospital Oakland ever since.

    So far the fund has raised more than $3,100 from 121 donors. The goal is to raise $20,000. Some donors have left messages on the site saying their prayers are with the family and donations seem to be coming from all over the country with one woman saying she was from New Mexico. Many on the site urged Winkfield to keep fighting saying miracles can happen.

    "Children recover every day from brain injury she just needs a chance! Praying for your family," read one post from Kathy Clark.

    The family faces a court-ordered 5 p.m. Monday deadline to pull Jahi off her ventilator at Children's Hospital. Jahi's family does not accept that she is dead and has been scrambling to find a long-term care facility. But hospital officials said Friday while it would send the girl to such a facility it wouldn't install a trachea or gastric feeding tube necessary for such a transfer.

    Other experts say it might be hard for the family to find any doctor to perform the procedures on Jahi with her brain-dead status.

    To view the fundraising page visit www.gofundme.com/jahi-mcmath or contact the family at Jahi McMath, P.O. Box 5128, Oakland, CA 94605-0128.

    Contact Elisabeth Nardi at 925-952-2617. Follow her at Twitter.com/enardi10.



    this one contradicts the other.
    I thought they had rich doctors who were willing to pay for Jahi's care or was that only at the LTCF that backed out?

    And, the insurance won't pay for it. Uhhh, probably because she's dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Queena View Post
    At this point I'm wondering if they know something we don't know. Why would a LTC facility take a person that's brain dead? Maybe there is SOME activity in her brain. I surely hope they're not working on a hope, wish and a prayer. Not saying that it can't work, but the odds are so high, I just don't think it's possible. I feel for them.
    There have been 6 doctors evaluate her and confirm brain death. Two doctors who work at the hospital, three independent, and a court appointed doctor. If she had ANY activity I'm sure one of those six doctors would have seen it.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  25. #250
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73 View Post
    In my opinion, any LTC that agrees to take her isn't a good LTC. The only nursing home that will agree to this is probably the bottom of the barrel. Because any respectful LTC knows that a breathing and feeding tube is not the only care required to sustain a dead body. NO nursing home is equipped to care for someone who is brain dead. Are they going to hire a crash team? Or are they expecting the CNAs to have the same medical knowledge as Doctors? Brain Damage and Brain Dead affect the rest of the body differently. The Liver, Kidneys....they are shutting down if they aren't already there. This is assanine.
    .
    Yep, lots of drips. I'd like to know exactly what the hospital has her on currently. I think I read in an earlier article she was on one drip and the ventilator and that was it. As her body starts to break down she will need more meds to maintain every aspect of organ function.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

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