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Thread: Jahi McMath (13) died for real five years after she was declared brain dead following surgery complications

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    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Jahi McMath (13) died for real five years after she was declared brain dead following surgery complications

    https://www.facebook.com/keepJahiMcmathonlifesupport

    Who gets to decide when to end life support when a person is brain dead?

    The mother of 13-year-old Jahi McMath, who was declared brain dead Thursday, three days after undergoing surgery to remove her tonsils, said Tuesday that the family should make the call.

    "I don't want her off life support because I really feel like she can wake up," Nailah Winkfield told CNN's Piers Morgan. "I feel like it's just been a rough week for her and, if they just give her some more time, then she'll be able to wake up."

    Jahi's family has presented Children's Hospital & Research Center in Oakland, California, with a cease-and-desist letter aimed at preventing the hospital from taking her off a ventilator, attorney Christopher B. Dolan said Tuesday.

    "If the hospital wants to terminate Jahi's life, they should go to court and get a judge to authorize that, not pressure a parent into signing a document in the middle of the night or telling them at 8:30 tomorrow morning your child will be died," he told CNN.

    Doctors had recommended the tonsillectomy to treat Jahi's sleep apnea, weight gain, inability to concentrate, short attention span and uncontrolled urination, her uncle Omari Sealey told CNN on Monday in a telephone interview.

    "They said that she would have more energy, focus more, lose weight, and the urinating would stop," he said.

    The surgery, which occurred December 9, initially appeared to have gone well, said Sandy Chatman, Jahi's grandmother who is herself a nurse and saw the girl in the recovery room.

    "She was alert and talking, and she was asking for a Popsicle because she said her throat hurt," Chatman said.

    But Jahi was then moved to the intensive-care unit, and her relatives were denied access to the eighth-grader for 30 minutes; when they finally were allowed to see her, they knew something was wrong. "Upon entry, they saw that there was way too much blood," Chatman said.

    "We kept asking, 'Is this normal?'" Sealey said. "Some nurses said, 'I don't know,' and some said, 'Yes.' There was a lot of uncertainty and a lack of urgency."

    Sealey said that when Chatman noticed that her granddaughter's oxygen levels were dangerously low, she called for help.

    But Jahi went into cardiac arrest. The medical staff performed chest compressions to revive her and gave her clotting medications, but nothing worked.

    On Tuesday, a CT scan revealed that two-thirds of Jahi's brain was swollen.

    Sealey said that Jahi's brain had been deprived of oxygen. "Now she is 100% brain damaged," he said. "Medically dead."

    CNN could not independently confirm Sealey's account.

    When asked about the case, hospital spokeswoman Melinda Krigel cited privacy laws.

    A statement from the hospital's chief of pediatrics, Dr. David Durand, read: "Our hearts go out to this patient and her family. Unfortunately, we have not been authorized by the family to share information with the public about this matter. Consequently, we are not able to correct misperceptions created about this sad situation.

    "Nonetheless, we want to assure the community that we are doing everything in our capacity to provide support to the grieving family. We have been caring for children in this community for over 100 years and have a longstanding commitment to delivering the highest quality care for all."

    Dr. Lisa Thebner, a pediatrician in private practice in New York who was not involved in the case, said excessive bleeding -- though rare -- is not unheard of in such operations, given that the tonsils are removed from the back of the throat, an area rich in blood vessels.

    Still, she said, "This was a highly unusual complication."

    When told that his niece was brain dead, Sealey said the entire family went into "complete devastation."

    "We pray over her daily," Sealey said. "We kiss her. I charge her iPod and make sure it is in her ears every night when I sleep next to her."

    But he said he had accepted that she was legally dead.

    An official from the Oakland coroner's office told CNN that Jahi's death was reported Thursday to the office.

    "Once a death is reported to us, we have a duty and responsibility to immediately proceed to where the body lies, examine the body, make identification, make inquiry into the circumstances, manner, and means of death, and, as circumstances warrant, either order its removal for further investigation or disposition, or release the body to the next of kin," the official said, quoting California law.

    Sealey said that though the family hoped to keep Jahi on life support, hospital representatives had told them Monday that would not be an option.

    That has left the coroner's office in a delicate position.

    "Technically, we can go where the body lies and we can begin our investigation as to the causes of death," the official from the coroner's office said. "We have been gracious and we have allowed the parents and the hospital to maintain the child on life support."

    Krigel, the hospital spokeswoman, said that the hospital has no policy about terminating life support. "We work with the family to determine when that will happen," she said in an e-mail. "There are instances when the coroner may request termination, but we always work with the family to respect their wishes."

    The official at the coroner's office said time is critical. "When the body is on a ventilator, the body is healing," the official said. "If a medical misadventure occurred, and the body is healing and covering up traces of that misadventure, the coroner pathologist has a more difficult time rendering a cause of death."

    The bigger issue is deciding whether it is more important to delay removing the ventilator to give relatives time to grieve or to act quickly to determine the causes of death before continued healing could make it impossible to ascertain those causes, the official said.

    "We know the parents want answers, and it is our office that will provide answers if they are available to us," the official said. "The longer we wait, the less susceptible we are to getting the evidence we need to render a cause of death. Time is not on our side, from a medical investigation standpoint."

    "This is obviously a horrible and tragic case," said Dr. J. Randall Curtis, a professor of medicine and the director of the Palliative Care Center of Excellence at the University of Washington in Seattle.

    But, he added, "If the patient is brain dead, they are legally dead and, legally, the doctors and the hospital have the right to stop life support -- without the consent of the family."

    Still, giving them a little time to come to grips with the reality can be helpful, said Curtis, who published a study in 2008 that found that when the withdrawal of life support was delayed, a family's satisfaction with care tended to be higher.

    "The most important thing in this situation is to provide support for the family," he said in a telephone interview. "To help the family come to understand what's happened, to be able to grieve this loss and to be able to get to a place where they are ready."

    But, he acknowledged, in cases where something went horribly awry, "being able to trust the doctors is going to be challenging."

    Arthur L. Caplan, the head of the Division of Medical Ethics at New York University Langone Medical Center, said Tuesday there was no doubt about who makes the call. "The legal right to stop is on the doctors' side," he told CNN. "We don't treat the dead. Sadly, she has died."
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/17/health...html?hpt=hp_t1
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    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Wait until the family receives a hospital bill for the period of time the girl was pronounced dead to when they finally take her off the ventilator. They are going to be pissed when they find out their insurance won't cover that cost because the girl was dead.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

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    Cousin Greg Angiebla's Avatar
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    How in the hell would getting this child's tonsil's out possibly treat her uncontrollable urination?

    ETA: what part of "brain dead" does this family not comprehend? I'm not trying to sound mean, but the mom says she will "wake up and snap out of it" that's physically impossible.
    Last edited by Angiebla; 12-17-2013 at 07:49 PM.

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    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    Wait until the family receives a hospital bill for the period of time the girl was pronounced dead to when they finally take her off the ventilator. They are going to be pissed when they find out their insurance won't cover that cost because the girl was dead.
    It's a hell of a thing. And then if you look at the facebook page, there's all these people encouraging them to keep her on life support. Horrible situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
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    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    How in the hell would getting this child's tonsil's out possibly treat her uncontrollable urination?

    ETA: what part of "brain dead" does this family not comprehend? I'm trying to sound mean, but the mom says she will "wake up and snap out of it" that's physically impossible.
    In rare cases, bed-wetting may be a symptom of a health condition. These conditions may cause excess urine or prevent the bladder from completely emptying. They include :

    Kidney or bladder infections
    Kidney disease
    Diabetes mellitus
    Diabetes insipidus (a very rare disorder in which sugar is normal but excess water is excreted by the kidney)
    Congenital bladder, kidney, or neurological abnormality
    A sleep disorder, sometimes related to enlarged tonsils or adenoids
    http://pediatrics.med.nyu.edu/condit...ns/bed-wetting
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    Cousin Greg Angiebla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    In rare cases, bed-wetting may be a symptom of a health condition. These conditions may cause excess urine or prevent the bladder from completely emptying. They include :

    Kidney or bladder infections
    Kidney disease
    Diabetes mellitus
    Diabetes insipidus (a very rare disorder in which sugar is normal but excess water is excreted by the kidney)
    Congenital bladder, kidney, or neurological abnormality
    A sleep disorder, sometimes related to enlarged tonsils or adenoids
    http://pediatrics.med.nyu.edu/condit...ns/bed-wetting
    Thanks I didn't know this. She had a lot of health conditions for being a little girl. Isn't sleep apnea weight related in most cases?

    "The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin

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    Senior Member becoming's Avatar
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    Logically, I know the girl is dead, and her family has to realize that and let her go, but when I think about that being MY child lying there... I don't know how you ever make that decision as a parent.

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    Moderator nestlequikie's Avatar
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    From the puffiness of her face, it looks as though she possibly was on prednisone or had problems with her adrenal glands.

    RIP Jahi
    I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to. - Donnie Darko

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    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    How in the hell would getting this child's tonsil's out possibly treat her uncontrollable urination?

    ETA: what part of "brain dead" does this family not comprehend? I'm not trying to sound mean, but the mom says she will "wake up and snap out of it" that's physically impossible.
    I think I read the mom is also a nurse which makes this story even more tragic.

    I think the doctors may not have explained the prognosis and/or diagnosis very well. I understand giving the family time to process their family member is brain dead, but they have opened up a huge can of worms with allowing this family to keep this poor DEAD kid on the ventilator because they think she will wake up. From the dead. I bet the organ donation discussion went over really well. (sarcasm) They needed to be a little more aggressive in communicating with the family. I hope they showed them the neurological tests that proved this kid is dead. When the medical staff saw there was some issues they should have got their risk management team involved. Maybe they have, I dunno. That might be why the family got a court injunction to keep the kid on the ventilator.

    I feel the coroner should have requested the body. I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but the hospital knew the family was having a difficult time accepting the death, they gave them some time. I feel like if the hospital or coroner turned off the vent and went on with their process, the family could process the death themselves. They obviously do not understand what brain death is and they think the kid is going to open her eyes because she's pink, her chest is rising and falling, and the monitor shows a heartbeat. They are not comprehending the MACHINE is doing it.

    Also, the coroner mentioned that a healing process is taking place while the kid is on the vent. Just to clarify, it isn't healing her brain at all. The body is going to heal the boo boo from the surgery because the kid is being fed a constant source of oxygen. Hopefully, the family's injunction doesn't include providing nutrients or other products; to T3 or T4, Albumin, Potassium, nothing, so the kid's heart will just give out. The death certificate will still show the date of death as being the day she was declared brain dead, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    It's a hell of a thing. And then if you look at the facebook page, there's all these people encouraging them to keep her on life support. Horrible situation.
    I read some of the FB page. I want to respond so freaking bad, but I don't want them people hunting me down in my real life. I read (skimmed actually because my blood pressure was high and my brain was hurting) a post about it possibly being murder? Comparing her to Trayvon Martin and Kendrick Johnson.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

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    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by becoming View Post
    Logically, I know the girl is dead, and her family has to realize that and let her go, but when I think about that being MY child lying there... I don't know how you ever make that decision as a parent.


    That's the problem and I'm not being an asshole. The hospitals are being compassionate towards parents because they understand it has to be the hardest thing ever to lose a child. In doing that, they are giving parents a little too much control.

    It should be something like:

    I'm very sorry for your loss. The time of death is _____. By law, we have to turn the machines off. We will give you some time to say your goodbyes and will turn the machine off together.


    Not as assholery, though, but with some authority and sternness while showing some compassion.

    But, the hospital staff must also explain brain death and not be afraid of giving the bad news. I can't tell you how many times I've heard docs say, "the prognosis does not look good. Your loved one is very sick," when they just got done with neurological function tests that showed the person was actually DEAD. They need to explain it and not beat around the bush. Let the family start the grieving process and don't string them along.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

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    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    I think I read the mom is also a nurse which makes this story even more tragic.

    I think the doctors may not have explained the prognosis and/or diagnosis very well. I understand giving the family time to process their family member is brain dead, but they have opened up a huge can of worms with allowing this family to keep this poor DEAD kid on the ventilator because they think she will wake up.
    When Roomies nephew (3yo) was shot he was basically gone from the time of the shooting, but alive enough that they put him on a ventilator, mainly to preserve his organs I think. But it made it much tougher for the parents to accept that he was gone. But the doctors were able to convey the brain dead is forever message to them. I'd think a family that includes a nurse would be able to understand that, if not accept it.
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    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    I can't tell you how many times I've heard docs say, "the prognosis does not look good. Your loved one is very sick," when they just got done with neurological function tests that showed the person was actually DEAD. They need to explain it and not beat around the bush. Let the family start the grieving process and don't string them along.
    Yeah. Letting them down easy is a horrible thing to do. "I'm sorry. She's gone" would be so much kinder in the long run.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
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    Cousin Greg Angiebla's Avatar
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    I just reread the article and the family's story makes absolutely no sense. The surgery was completed, she was alert enough to speak to the family, then she crashed out of nowhere?

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    Certified Grumple Bottoms Ron_NYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    I just reread the article and the family's story makes absolutely no sense. The surgery was completed, she was alert enough to speak to the family, then she crashed out of nowhere?
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
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    What do you care? Boston Babe 73's Avatar
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    This is so extremely sad

    I realize that she had a lot of health problems, but if it were my child a tonsillectomy would have been a last resort. It's actually a very dangerous operation. When I was little they were ripping them out of kids left and right. I used to get strep throat continuously and they wanted to do it to me. My Mom refused because she was a nurse and understood how serious the operation was. It's why they rarely perform it now. These poor parents.

    I don't even have kids and I can't imagine making that decision to let her go. But since her Mom was a nurse I would think she would understand that she's not coming back. Terrible all around.
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    sucks to your ass-mar Nancy Drew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_NYC View Post
    Yeah, I mean, that shit happens. It's not unheard of.

    That was the most plausible part of that finale, for the record.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    oMG, yeah, no, AMY is in no way superior to Tara. Never.

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    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    When Roomies nephew (3yo) was shot he was basically gone from the time of the shooting, but alive enough that they put him on a ventilator, mainly to preserve his organs I think. But it made it much tougher for the parents to accept that he was gone. But the doctors were able to convey the brain dead is forever message to them. I'd think a family that includes a nurse would be able to understand that, if not accept it.
    If he was alive I really feel they placed him on the ventilator to try to save his life. When it comes to kids, health care professionals are diligent. Not that they aren't with non kids, but no one wants to see a child die. Also, they probably vented him in order to be able to perform neurological function to determine what the prognosis was going to be. I'm sure the last thing on their minds was preserving his organs for donation. They may have had thoughts of if the kid didn't make it he could possibly be an organ donor, but I bet they worked their arses off trying to save him.

    Personally, I prefer to intubate everyone who crashes in the field so when they are brought into the ER they can get placed on the vent and not pronounced DOA. 1) It gives the ER the opportunity to fight for that persons life, 2) It provides the opportunity to check neurological function (the person was without oxygen for X amount of minutes and will show if there is any brain activity what so ever), 3) Organ preservation if, in deed, there is no neurological function.

    I really do think one of the biggest problems when families fight like this is because brain death has not been explained appropriately. Of course, there are some people who will just not get it no matter what you say, do, or show them.

    You would think a nurse would understand it, but you would also be surprised how many health care professionals don't know what brain death means. They think it's Teri Schiavo.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    Yeah. Letting them down easy is a horrible thing to do. "I'm sorry. She's gone" would be so much kinder in the long run.
    Yep. Sometimes "being nice" kicks them in the butt. Then again, I think the short and sweet is the nice thing to do in the long run. It's like a double edged sword in a way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    I just reread the article and the family's story makes absolutely no sense. The surgery was completed, she was alert enough to speak to the family, then she crashed out of nowhere?
    It happens. There are complications with any and every kind of procedure. There are a couple of threads on here about people who died having their wisdom teeth removed. One of my mom's friends died during routine gall bladder surgery. They are all low risk, but it does happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

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    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    If he was alive I really feel they placed him on the ventilator to try to save his life. When it comes to kids, health care professionals are diligent. Not that they aren't with non kids, but no one wants to see a child die. Also, they probably vented him in order to be able to perform neurological function to determine what the prognosis was going to be. I'm sure the last thing on their minds was preserving his organs for donation. They may have had thoughts of if the kid didn't make it he could possibly be an organ donor, but I bet they worked their arses off trying to save him.

    Personally, I prefer to intubate everyone who crashes in the field so when they are brought into the ER they can get placed on the vent and not pronounced DOA. 1) It gives the ER the opportunity to fight for that persons life, 2) It provides the opportunity to check neurological function (the person was without oxygen for X amount of minutes and will show if there is any brain activity what so ever), 3) Organ preservation if, in deed, there is no neurological function.

    I really do think one of the biggest problems when families fight like this is because brain death has not been explained appropriately. Of course, there are some people who will just not get it no matter what you say, do, or show them.

    You would think a nurse would understand it, but you would also be surprised how many health care professionals don't know what brain death means. They think it's Teri Schiavo.



    Yep. Sometimes "being nice" kicks them in the butt. Then again, I think the short and sweet is the nice thing to do in the long run. It's like a double edged sword in a way.



    It happens. There are complications with any and every kind of procedure. There are a couple of threads on here about people who died having their wisdom teeth removed. One of my mom's friends died during routine gall bladder surgery. They are all low risk, but it does happen.


    ETA: I was tl;dr and see there are more posts.


    I had my tonsils removed when I was 5 and was in the hospital for a week. We've come a long way, baby!

    Who is that chick in the pic that Ron posted? She looks familiar. Lemme guess, she died from some routine procedure?


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

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    sucks to your ass-mar Nancy Drew's Avatar
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    She died after she had a stroke after she got shot by a serial killer who cut out people's brains and put them in jars and she had successful surgery so she was brain dead so her brother (who she loved in a sexual way) took her off life support and walked her body right out of the hospital in front of everyone and dumped it in the ocean and then turned to a life of logging, yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    oMG, yeah, no, AMY is in no way superior to Tara. Never.

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    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy Drew View Post
    She died after she had a stroke after she got shot by a serial killer who cut out people's brains and put them in jars and she had successful surgery so she was brain dead so her brother (who she loved in a sexual way) took her off life support and walked her body right out of the hospital in front of everyone and dumped it in the ocean and then turned to a life of logging, yes.



    I totally WTF'd this the first time I read it. I almost believed it. What movie is this?


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

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    sucks to your ass-mar Nancy Drew's Avatar
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    It was the series finale of Dexter.

    SPOILER ALERT!
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    oMG, yeah, no, AMY is in no way superior to Tara. Never.

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    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy Drew View Post
    It was the series finale of Dexter.

    SPOILER ALERT!

    OMG! I've heard so much about how the finale sucked balls and I agree from your description. I may have seen a couple of minutes of Dexter (first season maybe), but I have not seen a whole episode.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

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    XoXo Miller22's Avatar
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    Really, we're doing this again?

    Eta: I just looked up the recap. I though you were kidding. WTF!
    Last edited by Miller22; 12-17-2013 at 11:06 PM.

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    Senior Member Queena's Avatar
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    RIP Jahi.

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    Senior Member hamdinger125's Avatar
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    I don't know... my grandmother was in a coma for like six months when she was 20-ish and they wanted to take her off life support but the family refused. She did eventually wake up. I know "coma" and "brain dead" aren't the same thing. I do have a lot of sympathy for this family. It's hard to accept that someone so young could be dead, especially from what is thought of as a routine procedure. Like Boston said, they used to do them all the time.

    She died after she had a stroke after she got shot by a serial killer who cut out people's brains and put them in jars and she had successful surgery so she was brain dead


    How was the surgery successful if she was brain dead?

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