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Thread: Isabella Guzman (18) stabbed her mother 79 times

  1. #26
    Senior Member Morbid_much's Avatar
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    I found this comment under an article:
    I know this girl personally. Her mom & family are involved heavily with the Jehovah's Witness religious cult and the family was trying to force her to stay with the cult (which is a very controlling group) and she did not want to. JWs poison the mind and try to control people. They are a VERY dangerous cult known for this kind of abuse.
    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...others-slaying

    FB: https://www.facebook.com/isabella.guzman1
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  2. #27
    Orig FUCKING MDS lesbian sogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morbid_much View Post
    Not at all condoning her horrific act.

    It just is something I can more wrap my head around as far as the bad relationship and rage.

    It is a special evil to do that kind of violence in my opinion.

  3. #28
    senior cunt emmieslost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sogs View Post
    Not at all condoning her horrific act.

    It just is something I can more wrap my head around as far as the bad relationship and rage.

    It is a special evil to do that kind of violence in my opinion.
    i completely agree. i was more expecting the final argument to be over something simple like her choice in clothes or boyfriends or something. not religious indoctrination.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by emmieslost View Post
    i completely agree. i was more expecting the final argument to be over something simple like her choice in clothes or boyfriends or something. not religious indoctrination.
    Right and I looked at her fb... nothing screaming I could stab my mother so many times.

    So many stabs and then walking out without a word... she snapped in a big fucking way. Religion makes people crazy.

  5. #30
    Senior Member *crickets*'s Avatar
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    Mom (Yun-Mi) owned a photography studio in Aurora:

    Bella's Portrait Studio- E Iliff Ave
    Classification: Photographic Studios, Portrait
    ISIC-4 Code: 7221

    Bellas Portrait Studio is located in the city of Aurora.

    Address:
    10774 E Iliff Ave
    Aurora, CO 80014

    Contact: Mr. Yunmi Hoy (Owner)
    Phone: 7207489006
    Yun-Mi was Korean. I found her fb page...it is all in Korean, very few posts. The only pics were portraits from the studio--HS portraits, etc. No family pics. I can't find any photos of Yun-Mi anywhere, or anything at all about her on the internet. Seems like she was a pretty private person...

    from the Denver Post:
    The suspect's father, Robert Guzman, said his daughter and her mother, whom he identified as his ex-wife, Yun Mi Hoy, "were getting into fights all the time."

    He said Isabella Guzman spit on her mother's face the night before the slaying.

    Robert Guzman said police came to his home late Wednesday and told him his ex-wife had been killed. She had called him the night before the stabbing, saying she and her daughter had gotten into a bad fight.

    Robert Guzman said his ex-wife owned Bella's Portrait Studio at the Town Center at Aurora, and often worked long, 12-hour days. His daughter sometimes worked at her mother's studio, he said.

    "She was really a hard-working woman," he said of his ex-wife. "She tried really, really hard for her family, but Isabella didn't appreciate anything she did for her."

    Isabella Guzman dropped out of Overland High School, her father said.

    Denver Post online producer Daniel J. Schneider and researcher Vickie Makings contributed to this report.
    So she named the portrait studio after her daughter, who ended up murdering her...
    Last edited by *crickets*; 09-01-2013 at 03:45 PM.

  6. #31
    Senior Member Sarahric13's Avatar
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    http://http://murderpedia.org/female...seng-esmie.htm

    Hope this is right...this was a big deal long time ago. I was acquainted with her...those Tiger Moms lol

  7. #32
    Senior Member blighted star's Avatar
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    I'm having trouble findng words to explain this properly. I want to make it clear that I'm not condoning what she did at all, but I was in exactly this situation & only someone who has had to deal with christianity in rabid cult-form is going to understand how she could do such a thing. IF this girl's JW mum was like mine & many others, Cricket's "devil" comment is probably closer to the truth than anyone realises. Girls who don't "bow down" & "submit" are called evil on a daily basis. She would've been demeaned & humiliated (& most likely physically assaulted) every day for years. Every interaction would've been designed to wear her down. & it wouldn't have just been Mum doing it. It's normal to have church elders in your home several days & evenings a week for bible study. If a family member is not a witness, the bible study becomes a group bullying session. There's no escaping these experienced bullies because your own family invite them into your home to harass you.

    You don't even get to do your laundry without harassment- if her mother was like other obsessive JW mothers, this girl would've been forced to stand "respectfully" while her underwear was closely & publicly inspected for signs of whorish/evil behaviour. It's part of their battle against evil & a perfectly reasonable way for a mother to show she cares. As I was so often told, blushing is not a sign of embarassment or humiliation - it's a sign of guilt & confirmation they need to continue the inspections. Afterall, only an unchaste slut would have a problem with it. Complaining that other kids mothers don't go through their dirty laundry & sniff their underwear was once the catalyst for one of my own 4 hr "you must respect your mother" sessions.

    "So what" most will say - & fair enough. Again, I'm not condoning what she's done, but if she'd had help & support to get her away from her mother & most importantly, to keep her mother & other "concerned & caring" parties away from her afterwards, this might never have happened. I say "might" because I'm assuming an awful lot. I'm assuming her life was like the lives of other kids I know who were born into very religious homes. Maybe she was just the vicious spoilt brat that everyone believes her to be - it's certainly possible. But I'll put it this way, you'd have a hard time finding a bigger pacifist than me, I save caterpillars from hot footpaths & I've been stupid enough to throw myself in front of skinheads hellbent on beating the shit out of random strangers. When I was 17 though, there were a few bleak & hopeless months when I seriously considered getting my Dad's .303 & putting an end to the nightmare my mother was dragging us through. Suicide had been my first option, but I realised that would still leave the rest of my family dealing with it, & with her favourite target gone she'd just start destroying someone else. I still don't quite know what stopped me, mostly I think it was that I had family who weren't Witnesses & were silently on my side, so as bad as it got, I still had hope that one day I'd get out .

    Not all JW's are like my mother, so maybe her mum was a lovely person & this had nothing to do with religion & control, but it makes me wonder. & the truth is prison would've been a holiday compared to my homelife - sure it might've been the same kind of violence & abuse but abuse & assaults from people who are nothing to you hurt far less than the same from the person who's supposed to care about you most. If her whole family were witnesses, she'd have lost all hope long ago. No-one helps kids in situations like this because no-one bothers asking any Christian parent exactly what they mean by "respect".

    Oh & dropping out of school was probably the one thing her mother was pleased about. In fact her mother would have been pushing her to drop out for some time - a girl who insists on pursuing an education is a girl with rebellion issues who refuses to submit to the wisdom of Jehovah & her elders.

  8. #33
    Orig FUCKING MDS lesbian sogs's Avatar
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    We weren't JW but I had friends were. I was raised fundamentalist in a conservative house. I get what you are saying but I can't swallow murder.

  9. #34
    Senior Member blighted star's Avatar
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    Some comments from those who've experienced life on the inside - http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/


    Oh dear! I fear this tragedy will be used, anecdotally, to support the advice [coercion] that parents should not allow their unbaptised teenagers/young adults to continue to live in their home. Bad association > lethal consequence.
    The psychologist they interviewed in the piece mentioned how cases of rage are often started by some trauma she experienced in the past (sexual abuse/rape); that, combined with her mom's "unconditional* love", where she experienced a psychotic break and snapped.

    (* unconditional: see terms and warranty for details, as certain restrictions DO apply for JW families.)

    Knowing what we know about JWs and shunning, there's little doubt in MY mind that the high-wire was raised to dizzying heights for this girl due to known JW practices, her knowing that her own mom would shun her/put her out in the name of protecting her eternal life in a minute. I can't help thinking that a COMBINATION of factors played a role in this tragic incident (eg a high-control cult that strongly prevents exit by social ostracism, frowns on secular education/college, a teen's poor inhibition control, combined with possible history of sexual abuse or even just raised in a highly-misogynistic culture is an explosive combination).

    Don't think I'm making EXCUSES for her, but the daughter IS a victim who threw away her life by making the WRONG choice, but trapped animals lash out in mindless rage when they're backed into a corner and sense no other options.

    There's mitigating factors here that any court-appointed lawyer worth their salt who are representing her would carefully examine and build a defense on (or use to reduce her sentence to give her the psychological help she desparately needs).

    Adam
    (QUOTE : Others, while not condoning the girl's murderous rage, have suggested the part played by the Watchtower. This is nonsense. The difficulties between youth and their parents go back millenia and cross all cultures and religions).
    RESPONSE :
    You're kidding, right? You've likely seen literally hundreds of threads discussing the harmful and damaging policies of high-control groups like the JWs, discussing the effects of shunning on effected youth, policies and beliefs that shelter/cover up sexual molestation, no blood transfusions, no flag salute, national anthem, no sports, worldly friends, etc.

    Not surprisingly, such an environment actually DOES have an effect on SOME youth, even driving them to the brink of suicide (and many, over the brink, when they sense no other way out). You may have even experienced it personally, or seen it in others who've suffered as a result of such practices and policies.

    Yet when someone get pushed past their breaking point, suddenly some are not willing to CONSIDER linking causes with effects, even denying it as a possibility? (The clinical psychologist was SPECULATING, of course, but not without reason: although we don't know if there's any actual evidence of WHY she was driven to a homicidal rage, he was speaking based on a high-index of clinical suspicion, based on past experiences with patients.)

    It has nothing to do with one's political leanings, but with COMMON SENSE: it's hard NOT to link an ultra-conservative approach to life (eg anti-education policies, misogyny/sex abuse cover-ups, etc) being harmful to some personality types, where being raised in almost any other environment would lead to very different outcomes. That's exactly WHY society has decided that some children should be removed from their parents where there's abuse (emotional/sexually/physically): it's an affront to basic human decency to let them be raised in unhealthy environments, and it's needed to reduce the incidence of tragic outcomes like this.

    Of course, we wouldn't even be talking about the girl if she had done the "socially-approved thing" and only killed herself, but instead she killed her mom in a head-line grabbing manner. If she hadn't done that, it wouldn't have made the headlines, and JWs would say, "oh well, demon possession drove her to kill herself; she was a bad seed anyway", and the real truth wouldn't come out; the JW would be free to continue with their harmful backwards Luddite policies.
    Last edited by blighted star; 09-01-2013 at 06:33 PM.

  10. #35
    Senior Member Cara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    I'm having trouble findng words to explain this properly...more and more blahblahblah
    So tell me why JW's are considered a cult? The cliffnotes please.

  11. #36
    Orig FUCKING MDS lesbian sogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cara View Post
    So tell me why JW's are considered a cult? The cliffnotes please.
    False doctrine and mind control.

    Not everyone sees them as a cult.

  12. #37
    Senior Member Cara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sogs View Post
    False doctrine and mind control.

    Not everyone sees them as a cult.
    Ok, what would the false doctrine be? And mind control? More so than whacking people with the guilt stick when they walk into a confessional?

  13. #38
    Senior Member blighted star's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sogs View Post
    We weren't JW but I had friends were. I was raised fundamentalist in a conservative house. I get what you are saying but I can't swallow murder.
    No, me either. When it came down to it I couldn't even bring myself to swing a punch to defend myself. I can see how someone could be pushed far beyond what would be a normal response for them, but this was extreme by any standard. I'm not at all saying I think she should be given a hug & a pat on the head & told to merrily skip off into the sunset. This girl's got serious issues & "fixing" them is not something that's going to happen quickly - if ever.

    It's just that it's very easy to react to the headline & think something along the lines of "what a twisted little bitch" - which is what I did until I saw the word "Jehovah". I just don't want people automatically assuming her mother was a meek, kindly person & the daughter a spoiled brat. It could've been that way & I know a couple of pre-teen girls right now that worry me considerably (no religion involved), so I don't automatically assume girls are all defenceless innocents. But experience tells me in this case, there was probably something more than the normal mother/daughter battles over brattiness & teen rebellion - & yep, I could be completely wrong, because at this point all we've got is an unsubstantiated anonymous comment.

  14. #39
    Orig FUCKING MDS lesbian sogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    No, me either. When it came down to it I couldn't even bring myself to swing a punch to defend myself. I can see how someone could be pushed far beyond what would be a normal response for them, but this was extreme by any standard. I'm not at all saying I think she should be given a hug & a pat on the head & told to merrily skip off into the sunset. This girl's got serious issues & "fixing" them is not something that's going to happen quickly - if ever.

    It's just that it's very easy to react to the headline & think something along the lines of "what a twisted little bitch" - which is what I did until I saw the word "Jehovah". I just don't want people automatically assuming her mother was a meek, kindly person & the daughter a spoiled brat. It could've been that way & I know a couple of pre-teen girls right now that worry me considerably (no religion involved), so I don't automatically assume girls are all defenceless innocents. But experience tells me in this case, there was probably something more than the normal mother/daughter battles over brattiness & teen rebellion - & yep, I could be completely wrong, because at this point all we've got is an unsubstantiated anonymous comment.
    I totally understand what you are saying. It's hard to get if you weren't in a controlling household or familiar with how it can be.

    JW were worse than my family and mine wasnt pleasant.

  15. #40
    Sana sana colita de rana beli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cara View Post
    Ok, what would the false doctrine be? And mind control? More so than whacking people with the guilt stick when they walk into a confessional?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gawna View Post
    Roses are red, violets are blue, seriously where is the fucking ring I gave Julie and ask her mom about the flowers
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    In all fairness, we have no idea how big this dude's cock was.

  16. #41
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cara View Post
    Ok, what would the false doctrine be? And mind control? More so than whacking people with the guilt stick when they walk into a confessional?
    http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/a...witnesses.html
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
    Quote Originally Posted by nestlequikie View Post
    Why on earth would I smite you when I can ban you?

  17. #42
    Senior Member Cara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sogs View Post
    I totally understand what you are saying. It's hard to get if you weren't in a controlling household or familiar with how it can be.

    JW were worse than my family and mine wasnt pleasant.
    I really think the perpetuation of classifying JW's as a "cult" is based either on 1. ignorance 2. anger.

    I grew up a Witness, was baptized at 16, was disfellowshipped by 18 and re-instated by 20. Now I consider myself an Atheist and am completely inactive in the congregation. My mother is a JW, and her husband my step father is and has been an elder for years. I have a great relationship with them, and when I went to the big yearly assembly to see my mom in her first drama this past summer, I saw all of my old friends from way back. No one judged me, or punished me for showing my back tat, or snubbed me because it is well known that I "live in sin" with my fiance. The religion wasn't for me and they accept that.

    If someone had a horrible childhood and their family happened to be Witnesses, I have one thing to say about it. Crazy family is just fucking crazy.

    My mom is awesome and her religion gives her hope, purpose and peace. It really pisses me off when people label others and advocate hate on them simply because they don't realize what truly hypocritical Pharisees they themselves are.

  18. #43
    Orig FUCKING MDS lesbian sogs's Avatar
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    I know of some JW families that are like yours but I have seen worse. I believe all religions have people who go insane and try to control. Some religions have more propensity. My former religion and your former religion.


    And in reading a definition and criteria of a cult I believe JW, Mormon and Seventh day Adventists are borderline cults.

  19. #44
    Orig FUCKING MDS lesbian sogs's Avatar
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    I will add my godmother who I loved dearly was a converted JW. She and her daughter who I am close with is a JW along with her children. I don't hate JWs at all.

  20. #45
    Senior Member blighted star's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cara View Post
    Ok, what would the false doctrine be? And mind control? More so than whacking people with the guilt stick when they walk into a confessional?
    They don't do confessionals (unless my mother's lying to me - in which case she needs to go to confession). The false doctrine depends on your own church's doctrine (from my standpoint they're all false). I'm guessing the mind control is the extreme conditioning behaviour. You're told what to think & believe & you're only allowed substantial contact with those who will reinforce those thoughts & beliefs. Expressing ideas that conflict with their belief system, such as "well yeah I know I'm a girl but why can't I wear jeans or slacks & go to university?" or "why doesn't my brother have to do chores too?" or "why aren't we allowed to play sport?" will bring a whole lot of grief about disrespecting your parents, your elders & Jehovah down on your head.

    I dont know if I'd call them a cult, but then I was never "in". To my mother's great disappointment (&thanks to my Dad's intervention) she never got me into her Kingdom Hall. The "cult" part seems to come mostly from former members who've personally experienced the shunning behaviour, so I guess they'd know. I think it's also partly due to the refusal to recognise government, national flags & anthems & the whole blood transfusion thing - I think?? To be honest I don't really know anymore because I've refused to think about it for 25 years & I've kind of stuck my fingers in my ears & sung lalalalaLAAAAAA any time the subject's come up since I left home. I've never seen that JW site I linked before today. It seems to have a few ex-members so I'll see if I can find you some better answers than mine.

  21. #46
    Senior Member Cara's Avatar
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    So someone who used to be a witness and didn't like it and now has to go out of their way to degrade it. Yup, let's all listen to him.

    Let me just take one small snip and give you my spin, for what it's worth.

    More Danger

    There are other reasons beside the blood ban that makes it dangerous to associate with JWs:

    The neutrality of JWs in time of war can lead to imprisonment or death (A choice they make for themselves, because they do not view government as a supreme power.)
    Refusal to salute the flag can lead to ostracism and bullying. (We are excusing the bullies here? FFS)
    Non-observance of any holidays, religious or national: outcast & boredom (Chosing to not celebrate made up commercialzed holidays because no where in the bible does it say to do so? Seems legit.)
    Being a martyr is not psychologically healthy (Neither is dedicating your life to hate.)
    Higher education is a no, no. Young JWs clean houses, wash windows, etc. waiting for Armageddon. They suffer from poverty, disappointment, depression, and low self-esteem. (This is actually a pretty outdated misconception, yes Witness teens are encouraged to go on to missionary work or preaching full-time a.k.a pioneers. But again, it all goes back to their strict adherence to what is actually written in the bible, and Jesus encouraged his followers somewhere in Matthew to 'go and make disciples in every nation' or something like that. My stepfather has dedicated his life to the congregation and works part time painting houses. So does this mean he is a bad person because he should be killing himself trying to by my mother a bigger house or drive a nicer car?

    Break me off something...FFS

  22. #47
    Moderator puzzld's Avatar
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    You asked why people think they are a cult. I tend to think most churches have cult like overtones.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
    Quote Originally Posted by nestlequikie View Post
    Why on earth would I smite you when I can ban you?

  23. #48
    Senior Member Cara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sogs View Post
    I know of some JW families that are like yours but I have seen worse. I believe all religions have people who go insane and try to control. Some religions have more propensity. My former religion and your former religion.


    And in reading a definition and criteria of a cult I believe JW, Mormon and Seventh day Adventists are borderline cults.
    The way I see it, the largest most mainstream religions are the most dangerous. It's hard to avoid a stampede of blind sheep.



    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    They don't do confessionals ~I was talking about the catholics and the confessionals. If you want to talk about mind control, how about the fact that if I fuck a catholic guy, I can pretty much bet he will "forget" to pull out...(unless my mother's lying to me - in which case she needs to go to confession). The false doctrine depends on your own church's doctrine (from my standpoint they're all false). I'm guessing the mind control is the extreme conditioning behaviour. You're told what to think & believe & you're only allowed substantial contact with those who will reinforce those thoughts & beliefs. Expressing ideas that conflict with their belief system, such as "well yeah I know I'm a girl but why can't I wear jeans or slacks & go to university?" or "why doesn't my brother have to do chores too? ~Never heard of the pants thing outside of going to the Kingdom Hall. Pretty sure Orthodox Jews have the no pants on the chicks policy." or "why aren't we allowed to play sport?" will bring a whole lot of grief about disrespecting your parents, your elders & Jehovah down on your head.

    I dont know if I'd call them a cult, but then I was never "in". To my mother's great disappointment (&thanks to my Dad's intervention) she never got me into her Kingdom Hall. The "cult" part seems to come mostly from former members who've personally experienced the shunning behaviour, so I guess they'd know. I think it's also partly due to the refusal to recognise government, national flags & anthems & the whole blood transfusion thing - I think?? To be honest I don't really know anymore because I've refused to think about it for 25 years & I've kind of stuck my fingers in my ears & sung lalalalaLAAAAAA any time the subject's come up since I left home~And that's my whole point. Ignorance is a sort of self induced mind control don't you think? I've never seen that JW site I linked before today. It seems to have a few ex-members so I'll see if I can find you some better answers than mine.

  24. #49
    Certified Grumple Bottoms Ron_NYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sogs View Post
    I know of some JW families that are like yours but I have seen worse. I believe all religions have people who go insane and try to control. Some religions have more propensity. My former religion and your former religion.


    And in reading a definition and criteria of a cult I believe JW, Mormon and Seventh day Adventists are borderline cults.
    They're all cults. Some have just been around longer than others.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Ron was the best part, hands down.

  25. #50
    Senior Member blighted star's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sogs View Post
    I will add my godmother who I loved dearly was a converted JW. She and her daughter who I am close with is a JW along with her children. I don't hate JWs at all.
    I agree completely. I've moved to a town with a LOT of Witnesses. I was a little worried at first but there are a couple of families here that are lovely. My kids hang out with them & I get along great with their parents. (although I guess I need to ask those kids in 20 years to know for sure that things are as they seem).

    One thing I've noticed that seems to almost always hold true is that the families who've been members for generations are far more easygoing & relaxed with it than the more recent converts. The first 5 years seem to be the worst & I see that pattern repeating itself in the families at my kids school. It's not always true - the elders that came to my home when I was a teen were horrible people, but generally the newer they are the worse they are.

    & you're right, every religion has it's extremists. But I think anytime a religious parent discovers they've raised an atheist, or a child whose beliefs/lifestyle are at odds with their own in any major way, you're heading for a flashpoint of some sort. Thankfully most of us who've been there don't come close to actually doing anything remotely like this - no matter how many times we've been called evil.

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