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Thread: Kendrick Johnson (17) Dies after getting trapped in gym mats

  1. #226
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_NYC View Post
    I just said you were speaking down to people and you said you didn't give a shit. You made your point the first time. Don't be nice now. Go all in.

    No, I don't give a shit that you feel you were spoke down to, because I don't believe I was doing that.

    I was a dick to crickets because I got tired of her nit picky shit and that particular post had a lot of sarcasm in it.

    I'm not "being nice" I'm having a discussion. I can't agree and I can't disagree. Got it.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  2. #227
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_NYC View Post
    It's something you never have to worry about. Like me and abortion or gay marriage. But you can still take notice.

    I don't think every time a gay person is killed it's because they were gay. Sometimes it just happens that way and doesn't have anything to do with the other.

    But, yes, I do take notice.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  3. #228
    Senior Member *crickets*'s Avatar
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    What nitpicky shit?

  4. #229
    Certified Grumple Bottoms Ron_NYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    No, I don't give a shit that you feel you were spoke down to, because I don't believe I was doing that.

    I was a dick to crickets because I got tired of her nit picky shit and that particular post had a lot of sarcasm in it.

    I'm not "being nice" I'm having a discussion. I can't agree and I can't disagree. Got it.
    OK, so do you give a shit if anyone else felt that way? I guess I have to be more specific, even though I said the FIRST FUCKING TIME that you were talking down to folks, not just to me......

    Why am I bothering? You have fun talking to yourself. Maybe someone will jump in again if you shut the fuck up.

    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    I don't think every time a gay person is killed it's because they were gay. Sometimes it just happens that way and doesn't have anything to do with the other.

    But, yes, I do take notice.
    Well minorities have a long history of getting snubbed when dealing with the police. Not to mention the half-assed way they investigate things that happen in non-white/poor areas. So when you get some cockamamie story like this one, and a few other things that seem odd, it's not going out on a limb to think your family is being fucked with, and your child's death isn't being taken seriously.

    I think the reason that they aren't up in arms about a murderer was that they suspected police involvement from the start.

    And for you to start talking about dollar signs just seemed crass, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by *crickets* View Post
    What nitpicky shit?
    No idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Ron was the best part, hands down.

  5. #230
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *crickets* View Post
    What nitpicky shit?

    Couple pages back. I re read it when someone bumped the thread and it's pretty funny.

    BTW, I have no issues with you. I'm the type of person who can give you 'what have you' in one post/thread and move on (but I can keep it going as long as you-not you, general you-can). And most times my "what have you" is sarcasm. You just gotta know me.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  6. #231
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_NYC View Post
    OK, so do you give a shit if anyone else felt that way? I guess I have to be more specific, even though I said the FIRST FUCKING TIME that you were talking down to folks, not just to me......

    Why am I bothering? You have fun talking to yourself. Maybe someone will jump in again if you shut the fuck up.


    Well minorities have a long history of getting snubbed when dealing with the police. Not to mention the half-assed way they investigate things that happen in non-white/poor areas. So when you get some cockamamie story like this one, and a few other things that seem odd, it's not going out on a limb to think your family is being fucked with, and your child's death isn't being taken seriously.

    I think the reason that they aren't up in arms about a murderer was that they suspected police involvement from the start.

    And for you to start talking about dollar signs just seemed crass, sorry.



    No idea.

    You're the only one that has voiced that opinion and you've been a dick, so no, I don't give a shit about your particular feelings on that matter. I also said the FIRST FUCKING TIME I wasn't talking down to folks.

    I care about everybody else because they aren't being dicks. See how that works?

    There is a discussion going on, so why would I shut the fuck up? Unfortunately, the majority of the discussion going on right now is how butt hurt you are. I'm talking to myself? Do you not see your posts specifically engaging me or the other posters? Have you lost your mind?


    They think LE killed this kid?

    Ok, I can understand minority/LE relations, but thinking LE killed this kid? At school?


    Why was talking about dollar signs crass? Because that never happens? I'm genuinely interested and not being a dick.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  7. #232
    Certified Grumple Bottoms Ron_NYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    You're the only one that has voiced that opinion and you've been a dick, so no, I don't give a shit about your particular feelings on that matter. I also said the FIRST FUCKING TIME I wasn't talking down to folks.

    I care about everybody else because they aren't being dicks. See how that works?

    There is a discussion going on, so why would I shut the fuck up? Unfortunately, the majority of the discussion going on right now is how butt hurt you are. I'm talking to myself? Do you not see your posts specifically engaging me or the other posters? Have you lost your mind?


    They think LE killed this kid?

    Ok, I can understand minority/LE relations, but thinking LE killed this kid? At school?


    Why was talking about dollar signs crass? Because that never happens? I'm genuinely interested and not being a dick.
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Ron was the best part, hands down.

  8. #233
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_NYC View Post
    Yes.



    Hmmmm.......Sane enough to admit it.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  9. #234
    Senior Member *crickets*'s Avatar
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    FTR, I don't think anything I've posted (in this thread, anyway) has been nitpicky, so I would appreciate it if you would point out what you're referring to.

    Also FTR, I think there is a lot of shady stuff going on with regards to this case, and it needs to be looked into.

  10. #235
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *crickets* View Post
    FTR, I don't think anything I've posted (in this thread, anyway) has been nitpicky, so I would appreciate it if you would point out what you're referring to.

    Also FTR, I think there is a lot of shady stuff going on with regards to this case, and it needs to be looked into.
    It's a couple pages back. Well, maybe not because there's probably at least two pages of me and Ron going back and forth. Soooo, I dunno, maybe 5 pages back. I'm not going back to find it. It's not like it's lost in hundreds of pages.

    Maybe nit picky isn't the correct terminology. I forget what you were busting my balls about now. I just know I busted yours back with lots of sarcasm and when I re read it I lol'd a lot.


    I agree with you it needs to be looked into. A lot. Someone, maybe more than one person, will be fired for the blunders and hopefully it will lead to more training between the multidisciplinary agencies that respond to calls.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  11. #236
    Senior Member animosity's Avatar
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    ron has a point in saying that the speculation is due to the fact that minorities learn from a very young age to question the official ruling of everything because very often, they were treated unfairly in everything.

    morbid is a trained professional with years of experience, and knowing very little about this shit, i'm inclined to believe her assessment of the situation, for the most part.

    i think it's a bit unfair to insinuate that it's morbid's white privilege that forms her opinion rather than her training. i think morbid is probably pretty good at understanding discrimination. after all, she's got the queer eye.


    anyway. yes - many things seem wonky about this, but it's also possible that people don't always go by the book, especially when the problem is soon to be buried - literally. maybe some dumb intern ditched the organs because the bag broke and made a mess and then he didn't say anything about it thinking he'd never be found out. people do dumb shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by songbirdsong View Post
    "Say, you know who could handle this penis? MY MOTHER."

  12. #237
    Certified Grumple Bottoms Ron_NYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    ron has a point in saying that the speculation is due to the fact that minorities learn from a very young age to question the official ruling of everything because very often, they were treated unfairly in everything.

    morbid is a trained professional with years of experience, and knowing very little about this shit, i'm inclined to believe her assessment of the situation, for the most part.

    i think it's a bit unfair to insinuate that it's morbid's white privilege that forms her opinion rather than her training. i think morbid is probably pretty good at understanding discrimination. after all, she's got the queer eye.


    anyway. yes - many things seem wonky about this, but it's also possible that people don't always go by the book, especially when the problem is soon to be buried - literally. maybe some dumb intern ditched the organs because the bag broke and made a mess and then he didn't say anything about it thinking he'd never be found out. people do dumb shit.
    That was just for the "why are they even asking questions" thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Ron was the best part, hands down.

  13. #238
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    ron has a point in saying that the speculation is due to the fact that minorities learn from a very young age to question the official ruling of everything because very often, they were treated unfairly in everything.

    morbid is a trained professional with years of experience, and knowing very little about this shit, i'm inclined to believe her assessment of the situation, for the most part.

    i think it's a bit unfair to insinuate that it's morbid's white privilege that forms her opinion rather than her training. i think morbid is probably pretty good at understanding discrimination. after all, she's got the queer eye.


    anyway. yes - many things seem wonky about this, but it's also possible that people don't always go by the book, especially when the problem is soon to be buried - literally. maybe some dumb intern ditched the organs because the bag broke and made a mess and then he didn't say anything about it thinking he'd never be found out. people do dumb shit.

    OMG! This is a VERY good point. Residents and Fellows (most-ok, some- and in my experience) are the dumbest people. That scenario has probably actually happened. Instead of getting a new bag or telling someone about it. I can see that happening somewhere.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  14. #239
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_NYC View Post
    That was just for the "why are they even asking questions" thing.
    You are cracking me up today.

    Because I totally said that.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

  15. #240
    Senior Member nerdmiga's Avatar
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    Saw this on CNN and vaguely remembered reading about it when it happened. So glad I came back to my trusty MDS for more info because I was about to think "OMG COVER UP!" Then, I read Morbid's response and it makes a lot more sense.

    Speaking as a teacher who is around teenagers 5/7 days a week, I could totally see a boy thinking he can reach the bottom and then getting stuck. It's made me think of when I've lost something in a hard-to-reach place and how I've had to backtrack my way out. Maybe he thought he could wiggle his way out and then got stuck... tried to flail, but flung his shoes off. That's been speculated, though so I'm just rambling. I'm curious about the other blood, though. Not that curious, but curious.

    I could totally see a student in my school doing this, though. Interesting discussion!

  16. #241
    Cousin Greg Angiebla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *crickets* View Post
    FTR, I don't think anything I've posted (in this thread, anyway) has been nitpicky, so I would appreciate it if you would point out what you're referring to.

    Also FTR, I think there is a lot of shady stuff going on with regards to this case, and it needs to be looked into.
    There may be shady stuff going on with the investigation-but I don't think it's because this kid was black, I think it's because people were not doing their jobs correctly.

    "The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin

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  17. #242
    Senior Member Bellaboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    There may be shady stuff going on with the investigation-but I don't think it's because this kid was black, I think it's because people were not doing their jobs correctly.
    I agree with this succinct deduction.

    "Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves" .. Confucius
    "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation " ...... Henry David Thoreau

  18. #243
    Certified Grumple Bottoms Ron_NYC's Avatar
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    What's funny is a few hours ago a friend of mine started explaining the case to me and was like "YEA! LIKE THIS DOESN'T SOUND FISHY AT ALL!?!?"
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Ron was the best part, hands down.

  19. #244
    Senior Member blighted star's Avatar
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    I have days & weeks between my reads of this thread so the question I'm about to ask might be really dumb ...

    From memory, the (kind of) consensus at one point was that he wanted to change shoes before/after gym class, hence the extra shoes. Like many fellow students he couldn't afford a locker & stored gear on top of the mats. Somehow his shoe/s fell into the rolled up mat & while he was reaching for the shoe/s at the bottom, he got stuck.

    Suggestions were made (not here) that the shoes & socks (the ones near his feet ) had been thrown in after he was put in the mat - the fact they were above his feet was being used to "prove" he couldn't have done this to himself. But it was then pointed out that he could've just kicked off the shoes & socks he was wearing while he was struggling.

    This seemed to me to be a logical & innocent explanation but now I'm questioning this again, have I missed something?
    The distortion to his facial features was explained by the effects of gravity on body fluids. One of the articles posted recently describes fluid leakage so heavy that his hair was saturated in blood. They describe seeing pix of the scene & seeing a shoe with a few marks that looked like they could be blood but LE says the shoe wasn't collected as evidence because it turned it wasn't blood.

    So the bit that's confusing me is If he had really become stuck reaching for a shoe down the centre of a rolled mat, then shouldn't there be a shoe that was situated between his head & the floor & absolutely saturated in fluids just like his hair? Was there pooling on the floor? Did it show the outline of the shoe's position? If there is no saturated shoe, doesn't it make the entire "tragic but innocent" scenario implausible? What did I miss that will change this back to plausible?
    Last edited by blighted star; 10-10-2013 at 05:48 PM.

  20. #245
    Senior Member *crickets*'s Avatar
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    Dr. Gregory Schmunk, the president of the National Association of Medical Examiners, told CNN, "I have never heard of this practice."

    Organs are typically placed in plastic bag, which is then put back into the body cavity after an autopsy, Schmunk told CNN in an e-mail. While individual organs may be kept back for further testing, he wrote, "This would not amount to all of the organs in any circumstance that I can imagine."
    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    I suspect the ME world is trying to keep things close to the vest because if people really knew what happened to their bodies/organs they literally would not want to die (anymore than they already do).

    Also, why would he "admit" to some organs being kept but not all? (rhetorical) Because he's fibbing.
    So...the president of the National Organization of Medical Examiners lied to CNN because...he didn't want to upset the public with unpleasant details about what happens at autopsies? Really??

    And the second ME is either lying because he wants to stir up publicity, or he's just mistaken in his findings (despite 26 years of experience in forensic pathology)? And you know this...how?

  21. #246
    Senior Member hamdinger125's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *crickets* View Post
    So...the president of the National Organization of Medical Examiners lied to CNN because...he didn't want to upset the public with unpleasant details about what happens at autopsies? Really??

    And the second ME is either lying because he wants to stir up publicity, or he's just mistaken in his findings (despite 26 years of experience in forensic pathology)? And you know this...how?
    She said "I suspect." She said it's rhetorical. That's what we do here; give our opinions.

    Personally, I think your posts have been very informative, Morbid. I still don't know if this was a murder or not, but I've learned a lot. And I never felt talked down to.

  22. #247
    Senior Member *crickets*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamdinger125 View Post
    She said "I suspect." She said it's rhetorical. That's what we do here; give our opinions.

    Personally, I think your posts have been very informative, Morbid. I still don't know if this was a murder or not, but I've learned a lot. And I never felt talked down to.
    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    I suspect the ME world is trying to keep things close to the vest because if people really knew what happened to their bodies/organs they literally would not want to die (anymore than they already do). The only other thing I can think of is a ME's office maybe halfing an organ. Placing half in the body half in the pan to wait for final path report.

    Also, why would he "admit" to some organs being kept but not all? (rhetorical) Because he's fibbing.
    "He's fibbing." ^^ That statement is not rhetorical.

    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    The second pathologist knew the organs wouldn't be there. He is releasing this information so it causes more noise. He needs the public uproar to get it done, because there is no case. The family needs the public uproar so someone will be held accountable for a crime that wasn't committed.
    Also not rhetorical. Pure speculation, stated as fact.

  23. #248
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    I disagree with the parents seeing dollar signs. Everytime I have seen the father speak about this he has said that someone needs to be in jail. Today he went farther and said that if someone is covering this up, they need to be in jail. He speaks about wanting justice for his son.

    Listening to the reports, the cause of death was supposed to be suffocation and they are asking why was there not petechia (sorry if I misspelled) in his eyes? As for disposing of internal organs, I can see how this would happen but in a case where there is a possible homicide or suspicious death? In that case shouldn't more care be taken ?

    The black and orange shoe that has a substance that appears to be blood but they say was not so was not collected - did they test the shoe right there in the gym? How did they eliminate that it was blood without taking it to the lab? Why didn't they try to determine who that shoe belonged to?
    Ditto with the gray sweatshirt, there is something on the sleeve why was it not collected as evidence?
    The blood streaks on the wall, they said they are not Kendricks then whose are they and when did they get there? I don't believe that they would be there for a long period of time unless there janitorial crews are as inept as the police appear to be.
    The sheriff was very friendly with the CNN reporter until he found out he was there to discuss this case and then he became very hostile. This may have been a freak accident but they have cameras that show Kendrick walking into the gym, there were four cameras in that gym, why not release all of the video and put the matter to rest?

    The whole thing stinks

  24. #249
    Senior Member songbirdsong's Avatar
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    I initially thought "freak accident" but now I'm not so sure...if it was a murder, though, I doubt it's a huge ass cover-up on the part of LE/Medical people. More likely everyone is embarrassed by their fuckup investigation and the fact that they might never find out who (if anyone) did it. That would explain why the sheriff was so pissed -- the whole country knows how inept his team is.

    Then again, I can't imagine a high school kid getting away with murder. Kids talk. Surely someone would have said or head something.

    Quote Originally Posted by morbidT View Post
    Oh, I totally agree with that. Weird that the parents aren't raging there is a "murderer" on the loose. This poor kid is dead and the parents are on the news raging over a tennis shoe not being bagged when there is a murderer in their midst. What about the other kids? They aren't safe. What is the family doing to try to protect the other kids from ending up like their son?

    Also, remember when this story first broke the family compared their son to Trayvon Martin? They were alleging their son was a victim of a hate crime. Where has that steam gone?

    I can totally see how an untrained person could see the conspiracy and I believe that is the fuel being used for this case.

    $$$$$
    Thank you for explaining the paper stuffing thing. Like you said, there are all kinds of things we don't/shouldn't know about what happens to our bodies. I guess in any profession people cut corners (JC Penney ad vs. trifold), it's just that in this particular one their work stays 6 feet under 99 percent of the time. So yeah, the paper isn't cover-up material, but it still sucks for his family. Questions: 1)Would the organs of someone who died of positional asphyxia appear any different from those of someone who died of bft to the neck? and 2)Would you still have that horrid skin slippage if someone was killed by BFT immediately before being moved in to that position?

    I don't agree with your parents-as-golddiggers assessment, though. The media got started on the whole shoe thing, and it's natural that a reporter would ask his parents' opinion on it. So yeah, they're pissed about the shoe.

    They used their donations and borrowed money to have him exhumed and hire a medical examiner...NOT cheap. It's not like they took the money and jetted off to the Bahamas like George and Cindy Anthony. Also, you'd have to be the fucking shittiest parent in the world to hold up a sign bearing with your son's disfigured face as part of a get rich scheme. Jesus, it broke my heart to see pics of my daughter with a broken finger.

    They've been very active in demonstrations and protests; at one point they were both arrested in a nonviolent demonstration.

    On the morning Kendrick's body was exhumed, Kenneth and Jackie wore matching shirts that said: "It's not about black race. It's not about white race. It's about the human race." They have suspicions and theories about what they believe really happened to their son, and none of those theories include a hate crime. "It doesn't matter that Kendrick is black and not white," Kenneth says. "What matters is justice."
    Quote Originally Posted by animosity View Post
    Just as I suspected. A ring of elderly pedophiles.
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  25. #250
    Senior Member morbidT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *crickets* View Post
    So...the president of the National Organization of Medical Examiners lied to CNN because...he didn't want to upset the public with unpleasant details about what happens at autopsies? Really??

    And the second ME is either lying because he wants to stir up publicity, or he's just mistaken in his findings (despite 26 years of experience in forensic pathology)? And you know this...how?
    Quote Originally Posted by *crickets* View Post
    "He's fibbing." ^^ That statement is not rhetorical.



    Also not rhetorical. Pure speculation, stated as fact.
    Jesus christ! This is why I "gave what have you" before. You constantly come into threads and do the "opinion stated as fact" when you fucking do it yourself. It's a freaking opinion. Does everyone have to put a *clause before every fucking post to let YOU, specifically because you are the only one I have noticed that does this on the entire board, know a post is opinion? Because you know, on a DISCUSSION board NOTHING can be opinion based? Fuck outta here. It's a god damn discussion board where speculation and opinion take place! What the fuck, dude? You have been reminded of this NUMEROUS times.

    The areas that I KNOW ARE FACT, I have stated are fact OFF PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE. FIRST HAND. I, ME, MYSELF, YES, I PLACED TRI FOLD PAPER TOWELS, SOMETIMES THEY WERE WHITE AND SOMETIMES THEY WERE BROWN, INTO THE BODY CAVITIES OF PEOPLE AFTER AUTOPSY BECAUSE THEIR GUTS AND BRAIN WAS IN A PAN/BUCKET ON A SHELF. ONCE THE PATHOLOGY REPORT WAS FINALIZED I DUMPED THE GUTS INTO A BIOHAZARD CONTAINER AND WHEN IT WAS FULL, BECAUSE IT WAS MIXED WITH ALL THE OTHER GUTS OF PEOPLE AND SURGICAL SPECIMENS, I CALLED THE NUMBER ON THE SIDE OF THE CONTAINER FOR SOMEONE TO COME GET IT OUT OF MY MORGUE. THIS IS A FACT. NOT SPECULATION. NOT OPINION. NOT BECAUSE I HAVE LESS THAN 26 YEARS OF FORENSIC PATHOLOGY EXPERIENCE. BECAUSE I FUCKING DID IT YOU FUCKING MORON! AGAIN, IN MY EXPERIENCE, WHICH IS FACT, THE ONLY ORGANS REPLACED, WHICH WERE PUT INTO A BAG AND PUT BACK IN THE BODY CAVITY, WERE WITH ORTHODOX JEWS. AGAIN, THIS IS FACT YOU FUCKING MORON.

    I don't give a fuck if the dude is the President of NAME or not. If he is stating that organs are put back into the body and buried and he doesn't know of any instance that they aren't, I am calling bullshit. If he is saying stuffing body cavities with paper towels (and I don't doubt newspapers) is not typical, I am calling bullshit. It IS NOT unheard of and I think it is completely stupid to deny it happens when it can be so easily proven. Why would I be so adamant that it happens if I could be so easily proven wrong? Seriously, that would be retarded. I'm seriously lol'ing over here.

    Yeah, he has credibility because he has fancy initials after his name (I mean, you believe him), but just think about where his credibility is going to go when Anderson Cooper can easily find out the truth. Every case he has ever worked on will be up for speculation. That's what some people with "credibility" do. They fucking lie/stretch the truth/don't exactly lie but don't tell the truth, or what ever and end up looking like as ass over something stupid as paper towels.

    It has been in the news before over organs not being placed back in the body and buried. Because it is a very common occurrence, routine procedure.

    The Shipley story is actually the story that prompted me to register on MDS. (except the thread said the brain was at a funeral home on a shelf and not the morgue, which I argued and took a beating from members. The argument; organs aren't stored at the funeral home for pathology. I was right.)

    I have to snip this article for character space.

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/10/27...ain/index.html


    (CNN) -- Andre and Korisha Shipley were still mourning the death of their 17-year-old son, Jesse, when two months after his funeral, they received shocking news from students of the same Staten Island, New York, high school Jesse had attended. Members of a forensic science club on a field trip to the morgue couldn't believe what they noticed on a cabinet in the medical examiner's lab.

    "They saw this jar with a brain in it labeled Jesse Shipley," recalls Korisha Shipley, whose daughter Shannon came home in tears that day delivering the news. "They knew Jesse and he knew them. They were looking at his brain, and his brain was looking right back at them," the father adds.

    Jesse Shipley died in a car accident in January 2005, and the family members say that even though they agreed to an autopsy, they thought they were burying their son with all of his organs. To them, the cause of death was obvious - blunt trauma resulting from a car accident - so there was no reason for authorities to have kept the brain for further review.


    In a statement to CNN, the attorney representing the city wrote that although officials sympathize with the family, "it was within the Medical Examiner's discretion to perform an autopsy, and in appropriate cases, to remove and retain bodily organs for further testing."

    Dr. Victor Weedn, a forensic pathologist and a spokesperson for the National Association of Medical Examiners, says determining cause of death is not as simple as people think. He says it is common practice for medical examiners in the U.S. to save the brain and certain other organs when they think it's important.

    Oh look, a spokesperson for the NAME. This guy has a much more impressive resume than the current President of NAME. http://mediarelations.gwu.edu/victor...ensic-sciences
    "To say someone died of a motor vehicle accident, doesn't really tell us anything," Weedn explains. "For example, if a passenger in the backseat was epileptic, their fit could have distracted the driver and led to the death. So, from the outside it may not be so obvious why the person actually died."


    Weedn says the brain is preserved for at least two weeks in a formula that firms the matter enough for the coroner to examine it, a process necessary to rule out suspicion and to maintain evidence for cases when the death is determined to be the result of criminal activity. He says the deceased is often buried within that time period.

    "We have a certain authority to investigate death for public health and public safety reasons. That is a right pitted against the individual right, and sometimes that does upset families," he explains.



    The College of American Pathologists provides a sample autopsy consent form on its website. According to the form, the consenter authorizes "the removal, examination, and retention of organs....as the pathologists deem proper for diagnostic, education, quality improvement and research purposes." However, the form also states that "organs and tissues not needed for diagnostic, education, quality improvement, or research purposes will be sent to the funeral home or disposed of appropriately."

    According to Caplan, the laws are clear about what a medical examiner should do, but there is little oversight in the industry. He says in situations where an autopsy has been performed and a bereaved family is concerned whether all the remains have been returned, it is usually up to the family to ask.

    Perhaps what's most extraordinary in the Jesse Shipley case is that the family did find out through the serendipitous field trip students from Jesse's high school took the morgue.

    Dr. Cyril H. Wecht, a forensic pathologist and attorney who reviews cases like these but is not involved in the Shipley case, says the medical examiner was right to take out the brain for investigation but was wrong to openly display Shipley's name on it.

    Another very respected professional who has some taint on his hands. Since you informed me previously you found google, why don't you google him. He's a great man, very brilliant, but he has made a mistake or two. It happens..
    "You're talking about a matter of sensitivity and common sense," Wecht says. "Certainly if you're going to have student visitors, then you should not have names and numbers available to see."

    The Shipleys' attorney, Marvin Ben Aron, says not only the brain, but parts of the liver and testes were later returned and buried in a small casket with their son's body. He says handling the remains was the most traumatizing aspect for the family.




    I believe the second ME is causing a stir or is mistaken, yes, even with 26 years of forensic pathology. They do make mistakes, ya know. That's why they carry insurance. They aren't full proof. It's people like you as to why there's lawsuits in the first place. "But he has 26 years of experience! This should have never happened! But he has 26 years of experience!"


    I will also say that IN MY EXPERIENCE I have never known organs to be kept for research without the families consent. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but in my experience keeping organs for research was a completely different ball game with a separate consent and separate storage. We did a research project in conjunction with Harvard and I guarantee not one single brain was kept or shipped without family consent (or patient consent prior to death) on my watch. We also got consent to keep brains on patients with or suspected Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.

    All of our man in a pans were kept in case there was a need for further dissection of an organ(s) and micro analysis. No one ever play mad scientist with them. As I mentioned above, all those organs got separate consents and storage. They sat next to all the fake tits that were removed and needed to be stored while the Owens-Corning (or who ever that was) lawsuit was going on.


    ***********


    Okay, back to Disney Princess.


    Quote Originally Posted by blighted star View Post
    ..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

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