10-month old baby Lisa Irwin missing since 3 October 2011

[puzzld]

We had an in service on cadaver dogs at the fire department a month or so ago. The team told us that the dogs don't hit on poop, but can track urine. We were told that our urine is very specific to us. I asked if they could hit on a sewer and was told that the dogs probably wouldn't get too excited. Maybe they were talking about their own specific dogs, I dunno.

It does vary from dog to dog and the training used by each team.

We are training out dogs using birch and cloves. But having been trained to sniff anything out they are much more aware of other smells and their possibilities of earning a reward. Dogs can even be trained to sniff out cancer cells.

But to be useful in law enforcement the dog needs a handler who knows what his dog is looking for, finds rewarding, and need to be looking in the right places. Looking for the scent of a missing child in the child's home makes no sense unless the dog is able to distinguish only cadaver smell. If it also hits on poop... no go. Also, the cadaver smell doesn't get interesting until the person has been dead for a while, so... Casey's trunk? Sure. A floor where a body lay for 1/2 hour or so? No.

[morbidT]

It does vary from dog to dog and the training used by each team.

We are training out dogs using birch and cloves. But having been trained to sniff anything out they are much more aware of other smells and their possibilities of earning a reward. Dogs can even be trained to sniff out cancer cells.

But to be useful in law enforcement the dog needs a handler who knows what his dog is looking for, finds rewarding, and need to be looking in the right places. Looking for the scent of a missing child in the child's home makes no sense unless the dog is able to distinguish only cadaver smell. If it also hits on poop... no go. Also, the cadaver smell doesn't get interesting until the person has been dead for a while, so... Casey's trunk? Sure. A floor where a body lay for 1/2 hour or so? No.

Amazing on the cancer cells! That is wicked crazy awesome! I agree with searching the home, unless it is for a dead body/scent. I know the team told us how long a body had to be decomposing for the dogs to hit, but I forget. It does make sense that the body would have to spend a certain amount of time in an area (and of the elements) for the dog to hit on. At the same time, as soon as there is cardiac death, the body starts to decompose. If they can sniff out cancer cells, couldn't they hit on someone who has been dead for a matter of moments? I guess, in my mind, it is possible with training. The team (I keep calling them the team because I forget what they are called, but are out of Cincinnati) also told us that their dogs could hit on water because the body gases come to the surface and the dogs can smell it. They told of one case where a dog was getting excited and they found a shoe of the deceased. They also said that the dogs could hit on trees or bushes that have been planted on top of a dead body. Pretty interesting stuff.
Sorry for off topic.........

[puzzld]

Amazing on the cancer cells! That is wicked crazy awesome! I agree with searching the home, unless it is for a dead body/scent. I know the team told us how long a body had to be decomposing for the dogs to hit, but I forget. It does make sense that the body would have to spend a certain amount of time in an area (and of the elements) for the dog to hit on. At the same time, as soon as there is cardiac death, the body starts to decompose. If they can sniff out cancer cells, couldn't they hit on someone who has been dead for a matter of moments?

George the cancer sniffing schnauzer:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6651,3476012

They might be able to if there is something different about the smell. For instance most people thing that dogs that predict seizures are hitting on a smell related to some chemical change in the person about to seize. Dogs that warn about blood sugar changes seem to also be hitting on smell.

But. Those smells are easy to come by, relatively speaking. "Newly Dead" especially "Newly Dead Human" is tougher. Gotta have Dexter on the payroll.

[deeply shaded]

Maybe gangs could train cadaver dogs.

[puzzld]

Maybe gangs could train cadaver dogs.

There ya go.

[songbirdsong]

Did any of the witnesses happen to mention if the baby that was seen that night was awake and squirming around and stuff? I hate to even think it, but I'm wondering if the dude that was carrying her was actually carrying her corpse. If she wasn't moving, she very well could have been asleep but I kind of doubt it since it was cold outside and she wasn't wearing very much or wrapped in a blanket or anything.

I wonder if the dad came home, found the mom passed out and the baby deceased, then woke the mom up and was like WTF? She wouldn't have known how Lisa died or when exactly, but that kind of guilt and horror would definitely have produced the tears and emotion that we all saw on camera during those interviews.

Or if whoever Debbie Bradley was boozing it up with was the one that was spotted with the baby...I don't know. Poor little girl.

[rachy]

Caught on camera: The man police are hunting over Baby Lisa disappearance after he is seen leaving wooded area near her home
Surveillance footage comes from a gas station near to Lisa Irwin's home
Development adds weight to witness reports of man holding baby in area
Police also investigating a dumpster fire which happened on same night
News comes after cadaver dogs smelled 'scent of death' in family home
Lawyer for Baby Lisa's parents questions thoroughness of search



Video footage has emerged which shows a man dressed in white leaving a wooded area near to where Baby Lisa vanished on the night she was reported missing.

The discovery appears to add weight to witness reports of a suspicious man holding a baby in the area in the early hours of October 4.

Police are also now investigating a dumpster fire which happened in the same place at a similar time, Good Morning America reported. The fire could explain why burnt clothes were shown to Baby Lisa's parents during questioning and also why authorities searched a landfill site as part of the investigation.

Baby Lisa's parents, Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin, claim their daughter was abducted and police are investigating a potential scenario involving an unidentified man which supports this.

A woman and her husband said they saw a man in a t-shirt carrying a baby at 12.15am, three houses away from Baby Lisa's Kansas City home, just hours after the 11-month-old was last seen.

Another witness reported a man matching the description with a baby at 4.10am, three miles away. The video footage, obtained by Good Morning America, which shows the figure in white comes from a petrol station along the route between the sightings - and it occurred at 2.30am.

Ms Bradley claims that her daughter was abducted after she put her to bed at 10:30pm on October 3.

Mike Thompson told ABC News he was on his way home from work around 4am on the night Baby Lisa vanished when he saw a man in a t-shirt carrying a baby at an intersection about three miles from the Irwin home.

'[At] 4am, 45 degrees, baby don't have a coat or nothing and this guy is walking down the street and I thought it was kind of weird,' Mr Thompson told ABC News.

Mr Thompson described the man as around 5'7", between 140 and 150lbs and in his late 30s or early 40s.

A few hours earlier, a couple living three houses away from the Irwin family reported a similar sight. 'It was shocking because I couldn't imagine anyone outside walking with their baby in the cold like that with no clothes on,' the woman told ABC News.

But former FBI agent Brad Garrett told Good Morning America the development meant little as there was 'no connection' as yet to Baby Lisa.

He questioned whether it was logical to think a kidnapper would take Baby Lisa, then walk around the area for the next few hours.

'Until these details are connected you don't really have anything,' he said.

The man who reported the dumpster fire told ABC News that flames were shooting several feet in the air and he believed an accelerator had been used.

But Mr Garrett again threw doubt on the development, telling Good Morning America that without any DNA evidence to link the fire to Baby Lisa, the incident was of little value.

The news of the surveillance footage comes a day after the lawyer for Baby Lisa's parents was forced to hit back at reports of police cadaver dog smelling the scent of a dead body on a bedroom floor in the house.

Cyndy Short said the cadaver dog development could be misleading detectives because the scent could be decades old.

Miss Short told Good Morning America: 'My understanding is that there are cold cases where dogs have hit on scents of decomposition that have been in the home for as long as 28 years.

'This is an old home - 63 years old. There could be a lot of other explanations for that.'

Mr Garrett said the dogs have a great accuracy record, adding: 'In studies done of cadaver dogs where the dog has direct access to the scent and its reasonably fresh - its above 90 per cent.'

On Friday it emerged that a cadaver dog got a 'positive hit' during a search at the home in Kansas City, Missouri, where the 11-month-old vanished three weeks ago.

Officers said that they removed items including a multi-coloured comforter, purples shorts, a Disney shirt, a glow warm toy, a Cars-themed blanket, rolls of tape and a tape dispenser.

Bradley had previously told police that her daughter was was wearing purple shorts and a purple T-shirt when she put her to bed.

In the search warrant revealed on Friday, officers indicated that parents Bradley and Lisa's father Jeremy Irwin had restricted police access to their home.

'The only areas extensively processed for DNA and fingerprints during the consent were the baby's bedroom and possible points of entry,' court documents reported.


'The extent of the search had been limited in nature with consent' of the parents, police wrote.

A warrant issued to police to carry out a further search the home revealed that a dog had sensed the smell of death in the room on Monday.

The scent was detected 'in an area of the floor of [Lisa Irwin's mother Deborah] Bradley’s bedroom near the bed,' the affidavit said.

The positive hit was used as evidence to get the search warrant for a 17-hour search on Wednesday.

Police said that they wanted to look for DNA, fingerprints, cell phones and evidence of human decomposition.

The police application for a search warrant said that people involved in the case had 'revealed conflicting information for a clear direction' for the search for the missing child.

'Bradley made the statement she did not initially look for her baby behind the house because she 'was afraid of what she might find,' the document revealed.

The police also cited a 'garden area with portions of dirt having an appearance of being recently disturbed or overturned.'

Investigators spent all day Wednesday and late into the night examining the inside of the house, a large detached garage, the lawn and the house exterior, including the eaves along the roof line, according to television video.

Officers and agents could be seen removing large brown paper bags of items, rolls of carpeting and dark panels that appeared to be from X-ray equipment.

Police had a warrant to search the house without the parents present. Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin are staying with relatives nearby.

Police said they are pursuing more than 60 out-of-state leads in their investigation into the disappearance.

Police spokesman Steve Young said police have cleared nearly 700 tips and leads in the disappearance.

The continued police search comes as a woman who describes herself as Bradley's former best friend has claimed she had a dark side.

'She was my friend at one time and I loved to be around her, but when I [saw] the other side of her and got to know the true Debbie, I couldn't even believe I trusted her with anything,' Shirley Pfaff told The Huffington Post.

Ms Pfaff, who met Bradley in 2002 when they were both military wives and lived across the street from each other said she was not surprised by inconsistencies around Bradley's story.

'I am not shocked that her story has changed like the wind,' she said. 'That's typical Debbie.'

Lisa Irwin vanished on the night of October 3 in Kansas City, Missouri, after her mother Deborah Bradley claims she put her to bed at 10:30pm.

But later that night, when Lisa's father Jeremy Irwin checked on the child when he got home from work, the baby was gone, and she was reported missing by her parents early on Tuesday.

Irwin and Bradley claimed someone must have crept into their home while the child's mother and brothers slept and snatched the baby girl, saying that the front window had been tampered with.

Police have searched the couple's home, nearby wooded areas, an industrial park, landfills and sewers.





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ht-camera.html

[rachy]

yikes i don't know why that posted 3 times,first time i post i got an error.

[irishkat]

It posted best the last time. Thank goodness for paragraph breaks.

[nestlequikie]

I nuked the other 2!!

[poppy213]

How can they look at that video and say it's a man?
They got some skillz.

[bowieluva]

I think it's a ghost.

[morbidT]

George the cancer sniffing schnauzer:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6651,3476012

They might be able to if there is something different about the smell. For instance most people thing that dogs that predict seizures are hitting on a smell related to some chemical change in the person about to seize. Dogs that warn about blood sugar changes seem to also be hitting on smell.

But. Those smells are easy to come by, relatively speaking. "Newly Dead" especially "Newly Dead Human" is tougher. Gotta have Dexter on the payroll.

The story about George is just incredible! I get it. Dexter to provide the "Newly Dead Human" for training for the dogs.

[zeebee]

I think it's a ghost.

LOL that's what I was thinking.

[snowfallsoon]

About the cadaver dog-this dog was at least FEMA certified. And they can hit on the smell of decomp with 94% accuracy it the body was only dead for two minutes, 98% accuracy if the body has been dead for only 10 minutes. Only needs to be there for a second. They will notice urine and blood, but a cadaver dog would not signal for that.

Edit: can't find the link stating the dog was FEMA certified now sorry

[HockeyGirl]

Polica are asking the parents to do seperate interviews with them
http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-bab...ry?id=14810300

[morbidT]

About the cadaver dog-this dog was at least FEMA certified. And they can hit on the smell of decomp with 94% accuracy it the body was only dead for two minutes, 98% accuracy if the body has been dead for only 10 minutes. Only needs to be there for a second. They will notice urine and blood, but a cadaver dog would not signal for that.

Edit: can't find the link stating the dog was FEMA certified now sorry

That's awesome info snow! The team that talked to us had specific definitions for specific dogs. Trail dogs trail live scents and Human Remain Dogs (HRD) trail decomp scents, these use to be called cadaver dogs. I think there was another type of dog, but I forget. They also spoke of several types of certifications too, but I can't remember who exactly certified them. They did mention an international organization that certified. It was really early in the morning and although I really enjoyed the in service, I am realizing I don't remember shit

[ZoMyGoddess!]

that man in the video is definitely Natalee Halloway.

[snowfallsoon]

MorbidT-they can also detect bodies 60 feet underwater!
I think the other type are trained to find IEDs?

[morbidT]

MorbidT-they can also detect bodies 60 feet underwater!
I think the other type are trained to find IEDs?

Wow! I didn't know it was up to 60 feet underwater. They did talk about the dogs being able to trail on the water due to the gases coming up. I do think you are right about the IED's, or else we did discuss it. I'm kind of disappointed I don't remember much because I found it very interesting. It was early, one week post op, pain meds on board

[deeply shaded]

I demand that the people who tell of their after death experiences be sniffed. I want to know if they've really been dead or not.

[irishkat]

I demand that the people who tell of their after death experiences be sniffed. I want to know if they've really been dead or not.

That is an inspired idea DS. If a dog can smell death after seconds, surely they can be the judge of who really has been dead and who is making it all up! Huzah!

[puzzld]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...79P75D20111026

Lisa's parents, Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin, had not allowed follow-up interviews of the boys since they were questioned for less than an hour shortly after the girl was reported missing from the family's Missouri home.


The boys, reportedly ages 5 and 8, will be interviewed on Friday by child services specialists rather than police, Kansas City police spokesman Darin Snapp said. One son is Bradley's and the other is Irwin's.


Bradley, the baby's mother, has said she put Lisa to bed in her crib the evening of October 3, and that she was gone early the next morning when Irwin, the baby's father, returned from work at 4 a.m.


Bradley has said both boys reported hearing some noises the night their half-sister went missing.
Police questioned the parents extensively in the first few days after the girl's disappearance but the couple has since limited the communication. Police are asking that they be interviewed again and separately, Snapp said. Police have said they are not suspects.
In recent days, the search for Lisa has become less visible but is no less persistent, FBI spokeswoman Bridget Patton said. Investigators have continued to follow up on leads, but the almost-daily searches of woods and neighborhoods around the family home have tapered off.
"People are getting the impression it's slowing down," Patton said, adding that was not the case. "When a child goes missing we put every resource into it. (Agents) are not frustrated. They are doing their job."


Some recent attention has focused on surveillance video from a gas station near the Irwin home that showed a person emerging from the woods early on October 4. It was unclear if the person was carrying anything.


That came on the heels of witnesses telling network news shows over the weekend they saw a man carrying a baby dressed only in a diaper outside on that same night. A couple on Irwin's street said they saw the man at about 12:15 am while another witness said he saw a man with a baby at about 4 am some three miles away.
Kansas City police spokesman Sergeant Stacey Graves said on Tuesday that police have reviewed the gas station video. Police have declined to comment on the witness reports.


(Editing by David Bailey and Cynthia Johnston)

[HockeyGirl]

A couple on Irwin's street said they saw the man at about 12:15 am while another witness said he saw a man with a baby at about 4 am some three miles away.

Why are these people up so late?!!
I have no idea what goes on in my neighborhood after 11pm and before 7am

[Ron_NYC]

Why are these people up so late?!!
I have no idea what goes on in my neighborhood after 11pm and before 7am