Abby Sunderland- 16yr old Sailor Missing in the Indian Ocean

[deeply shaded]

[quote author=neenerneener link=topic=25671.msg1644883#msg1644883 date=1276273311]
and would you pay for her to be saved?  or would you expect someone else to?


and why dont you ever take me out on a boat?  :x
[/quote]

It's been in the shed since 1992. Probably ruined now from lack of care.  :|

See, that's the thing. Why would you expect someone else to?

I get what you're all saying and to be honest I don't care what anyone else does with their kid. I just think it's so silly to do stuff like that that is so dangerous and serves no purpose.

Mortis, enough people have climbed that mountain now. We know what's up there. No need for more.

I was looking for an article on Jessica Dubroff, a [s]9[/s]  7 year old who died along with her flying instructor and her father while attempting to fly across the USA and found this, someone who agrees with me.  :-P

http://politics.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978294467

Abby Sunderland... Jordan Romero... Dusty Howell... Jessica Dubroff (RIP)... Child heroes, or victims of stupid parents?
June 11, 2010 11:18 AM EDT
views: 522 | 7 people recommend this | comments: 18

Abby Sunderland is everybody's darling today. Found alive, she's adrift in her sailboat in the Indian Ocean, 24 hours from rescue, with a broken mast that has her sail lying in the water. Abby is sixteen years old.

Less than a month ago, Jordan Romero, a California teen climbed to the peak of Mt. Everest, a test that kills experienced climbers nearly every year. Jordan is thirteen.

On March 16, 1996, Dusty Howell of Discovery Bay officially became America's youngest known solo pilot. Dusty is eight years old.

On April 12, 1996, Jessica Dubroff, a student pilot from Pescadero, Calif., ...was killed early Thursday when her single-engine plane crashed shortly after takeoff from Cheyenne Airport. Her father, Lloyd Dubroff, 57, and her flight instructor, Joe Reid, also died when the plane nosedived into a driveway. Jessica was seven years old.

So-o-o-o-o... would YOU send your daughter on a solo trip in a sailing vessel? Would YOU allow your thirteen-year-old son to climb a mountain that cripples and kills experienced climbers annually? How about allowing your seven- and eight-year-old children to pilot planes... with or WItHOUT adult copilots.

As much as we idolize these children, praise them for their uniqueness and courage, cheer their successes and mourn their failures as if they were our own... I consider this sort of excess to be child endangerment. Just because your child says, "Daddy, I wanna DO that." doesn't mean Daddy has to let him/her risk the only life available to that child. Sorry, kids... but no, you can't! Not yours, so long as you're mine.

I agree that all risk is relative. But I also know that all risk rides somewhere on a horse named Continuum. Wa-a-a-ay over here, the risk is minimal, and the danger associated with failure is nearly none. Wa-a-a-ay over there, the risk is extreme, and the danger associated with failure is extreme. In my view, these kids have all been sent far into the second category, by parents who do not understand that their judgment must sometimes substitute for the lack of judgment of their children.

What say you?

[Bella]

Although this wasn't directed at me, I agree with you DS. I can't even imagine my kids driving, let alone taking a boat around the world alone.

My oldest will be 20 soon, and he doesn't even drive.

[deeply shaded]

[quote author=GothaBella link=topic=25671.msg1644996#msg1644996 date=1276284168]
Although this wasn't directed at me, I agree with you DS. I can't even imagine my kids driving, let alone taking a boat around the world alone.

My oldest will be 20 soon, and he doesn't even drive.
[/quote]

It just seems a little picky-choosy about who is neglectful and who is a great parent to an awesome kid.

My kid is fantabulous with a row boat. She's going to row around the world. She has a map and a state of the art row boat. We painted the oars red so they will show up in the water. When she drowns who do you think is going to be arrested? Not the same, you say? Why? Because my kid likes row boats instead of sailboats?

[chavonv]

[quote author=GothaBella link=topic=25671.msg1644996#msg1644996 date=1276284168]
Although this wasn't directed at me, I agree with you DS. I can't even imagine my kids driving, let alone taking a boat around the world alone.

My oldest will be 20 soon, and he doesn't even drive.
[/quote]

Although Riley is about to turn 3 I cant imagine allowing her to do this.  While I find it very courageous, I wonder how the parents would feel if something had happened to Abby.  I know I would blame myself for allowing her to try; however, on the other side I would feel awesome if she had completed it and I knew I helped her follow her dreams.  It is a really hard situation

[Mortis]

I dunno DS... depends on level of training... like I said 16 isn't 11. A lot of states will emancipate a kid at 16.

I would hate to think my fears of the world would serve to stunt my child's development..... and would hate to think I limited their "potential". This girls folks thought she had the skill, and honestly she had the good sense to pull the plug when she felt like she couldn't do it.  

Also these are sailboat type people, and hey.... I bet the way this thing was planned. monitored and financed , it's no more  dangerous than letting your kid drive.

[Creature Feature]

Maybe we should all just live in a bubble.

[deeply shaded]

[quote author=Mortis link=topic=25671.msg1645020#msg1645020 date=1276285510]
I dunno DS... depends on level of training... like I said 16 isn't 11. A lot of states will emancipate a kid at 16.

I would hate to think my fears of the world would serve to stunt my child's development..... and would hate to think I limited their "potential". This girls folks thought she had the skill, and honestly she had the good sense to pull the plug when she felt like she couldn't do it.  

Also these are sailboat type people, and hey.... I bet the way this thing was planned. monitored and financed , it's no more  dangerous than letting your kid drive.

[/quote]

Is this for me? If so, I'm not DM.  

Until she's 18 I will stunt her with my fears all I want.  :-P


[quote author=Creature Feature link=topic=25671.msg1645021#msg1645021 date=1276285611]
Maybe we should all just live in a bubble.
[/quote]

Yeah, cause not sailing around the world is almost exactly like living in a bubble.  :lol:

[Bella]

[quote author=deeply shaded link=topic=25671.msg1645007#msg1645007 date=1276284596]
It just seems a little picky-choosy about who is neglectful and who is a great parent to an awesome kid.

My kid is fantabulous with a row boat. She's going to row around the world. She has a map and a state of the art row boat. We painted the oars red so they will show up in the water. When she drowns who do you think is going to be arrested? Not the same, you say? Why? Because my kid likes row boats instead of sailboats?
[/quote]

There is a lady on the news right now that is saying that this is child abuse.

To add a point my husband mentioned before she was found-what about pirates?

[quote author=Mortis link=topic=25671.msg1645020#msg1645020 date=1276285510]
I dunno DS... depends on level of training... like I said 16 isn't 11. A lot of states will emancipate a kid at 16.

I would hate to think my fears of the world would serve to stunt my child's development..... and would hate to think I limited their "potential". This girls folks thought she had the skill, and honestly she had the good sense to pull the plug when she felt like she couldn't do it.  

Also these are sailboat type people, and hey.... I bet the way this thing was planned. monitored and financed , it's no more  dangerous than letting your kid drive.

[/quote]

I'm certainly not one to break my kids spirit, force MY opinions on them, or limit their potential. I would be a nervous wreck if my oldest could drive, but I would let him. A small part of me is really relieved that he can't.

As far as comparing this trip to driving, there would have to be more of these sailing trips to compare statistics.

[Mortis]

MAn you must have been waiting    I changed it immediately  :lol: :lol:

Stunt away, it's your kid......     

[Bella]

At least we know she won't be hitting an oil spill, so there is an up side.

[Creature Feature]

[quote author=deeply shaded link=topic=25671.msg1645022#msg1645022 date=1276285636]
Is this for me? If so, I'm not DM.  

Until she's 18 I will stunt her with my fears all I want.  :-P


Yeah, cause not sailing around the world is almost exactly like living in a bubble.  :lol:
[/quote]

Im just being difficult  :oops:



But still, i dont see a problem with this.  It wasnt some amateur kid deciding it would be a good time. It was someone who had the knowledge, ability, and heart to do it. Seems like she had the foundation of knowledge, the resources, and vision to be successful and Im sure herself and her family were well aware of the dangers and took every reasonable precaution to mitigate the hazards.

A 16 year old is fully capable of doing a lot more things then people give them credit for. Not all of them sure, but they arent toddlers. Shouldn't be treated as such.


Man, im going to feel sorry for kids in a couple of years when adventure is frowned upon.

[Bella]

[quote author=Creature Feature link=topic=25671.msg1645035#msg1645035 date=1276286554]
Im just being difficult  :oops:



But still, i dont see a problem with this.  It wasnt some amateur kid deciding it would be a good time. It was someone who had the knowledge, ability, and heart to do it. Seems like she had the foundation of knowledge, the resources, and vision to be successful and Im sure herself and her family were well aware of the dangers and took every reasonable precaution to mitigate the hazards.

A 16 year old is fully capable of doing a lot more things then people give them credit for. Not all of them sure, but they arent toddlers. Shouldn't be treated as such.


Man, im going to feel sorry for kids in a couple of years when adventure is frowned upon.
[/quote]


I'm going to feel sorry for you in a couple of years when you have kids and you change your mind.  :-P

[deeply shaded]

[quote author=Creature Feature link=topic=25671.msg1645035#msg1645035 date=1276286554]
Im just being difficult  :oops:



But still, i dont see a problem with this.  It wasnt some amateur kid deciding it would be a good time. It was someone who had the knowledge, ability, and heart to do it. Seems like she had the foundation of knowledge, the resources, and vision to be successful and Im sure herself and her family were well aware of the dangers and took every reasonable precaution to mitigate the hazards.

A 16 year old is fully capable of doing a lot more things then people give them credit for. Not all of them sure, but they arent toddlers. Shouldn't be treated as such.


Man, im going to feel sorry for kids in a couple of years when adventure is frowned upon.
[/quote]

I'm arguing for the sake or argument. Like I said, I don't care what others choose to do with their kids. There are tons of things we did as kids that are illegal or 'frowned upon' now. Before they can make it illegal to sail around the world when you're 16 it has to become an issue first.

[quote author=GothaBella link=topic=25671.msg1645045#msg1645045 date=1276287073]

I'm going to feel sorry for you in a couple of years when you have kids and you change your mind.  :-P
[/quote] :lol:  So true.

[Ron_NYC]

[quote author=deeply shaded link=topic=25671.msg1644992#msg1644992 date=1276283897]
It's been in the shed since 1992. Probably ruined now from lack of care.  :|

See, that's the thing. Why would you expect someone else to?

I get what you're all saying and to be honest I don't care what anyone else does with their kid. I just think it's so silly to do stuff like that that is so dangerous and serves no purpose.

Mortis, enough people have climbed that mountain now. We know what's up there. No need for more.

I was looking for an article on Jessica Dubroff, a [s]9[/s]  7 year old who died along with her flying instructor and her father while attempting to fly across the USA and found this, someone who agrees with me.  :-P
[/quote]
Yep. I'm with you.
Take all the stupid, goofy risks that you want. But when you're stuck in some cave in the middle of North Dakota and people have to go in and get you, expect a bill.
I don't get all the risk taking.
This is coming from a guy who is planning to go skydiving in a few weeks. :lol:
Not the same as climbing Mt. Everest though.

DS, a "pay for own rescue" Google search brought up some interesting stuff. I know John Stossel did something about it on 20/20. Small towns in rural areas were getting bankrupted by tourists coming in and doing goofy shit in their county. Stuff that needed helicopter rescues. :-P
http://www.katu.com/outdoors/news/51703077.html

[quote author=deeply shaded link=topic=25671.msg1645022#msg1645022 date=1276285636]
Yeah, cause not sailing around the world is almost exactly like living in a bubble.  :lol:
[/quote]
:lol: Seriously. CF, what the fuck?

[Mortis]

Pirates are only in a few places, and don't generally have ships capable of reaching the center of the ocean, much less getting away...... Closer to shore, I guarantee you all kinds of people in boats will be accompanying her.
This girl was under a microscope the whole time, had panic buttons, sat nav, radio contact regularly, and a deadman switch that would send automatic distress call.  They found her in open ocean very quickly.


I think a 9 yo and 16 yo are worlds apart, but the 9 yo kid's dad was with him....Did the kid who climbed Everest die?  I'm sure he was with adults. 
Hate to say it but yeah I have to admit.... sometimes shit happens, but not enough that we should all become scared complacent sheep, and not experience life or adventure.
In the 50's or 60's the world would have embraced this as a whole....  We still talk about people who did great shit hundreds of years later.... Kids need heroes and role models, and really, I would rather my kids look up to a girl who did what she dreamed of ,(or tried), beat the odds and faced the danger , than a football player or a politician, or a movie star.


You mean that just because something has been done then no one else should be allowed (or god forbid want to), until they reach a certain age that's arbitrary and changes from country to country, hell even state to state.
I mean really.... you can say that if it's already been done it's pointless for anyone else to do it?

[Creature Feature]

[quote author=GothaBella link=topic=25671.msg1645045#msg1645045 date=1276287073]

I'm going to feel sorry for you in a couple of years when you have kids and you change your mind.  
[/quote]

I worry about my friends while we do some of the things we do so Im sure this statement is all too truthful. :-P

BUT, as someone that spends a lot of time climbing mountains, disappearing into the wilderness, and numerous other activities considered "dangerous" without proper planning,  Id like to think that the world doesnt frown upon personal accomplishment when its done in a reasonably.

Not to drift too far off topic, but Bill Maher had it right:
We're becoming a feminine society. Feelings are more important than facts. Sensitivity is more important than truth. Children are more important than people. Committment is more important than individuality. And safety is more important than fun

This case is a pretty good example of that. Kinda bums me out a bit.

[quote author=deeply shaded link=topic=25671.msg1645049#msg1645049 date=1276287516]
I'm arguing for the sake or argument. Like I said, I don't care what others choose to do with their kids. There are tons of things we did as kids that are illegal or 'frowned upon' now. Before they can make it illegal to sail around the world when you're 16 it has to become an issue first.
[/quote]

True. I just dont think it should be that big of an issue. Yeah, its not the safest thing to do. Doesnt mean it shouldnt be done though.

[Ron_NYC]

[quote author=Creature Feature link=topic=25671.msg1645057#msg1645057 date=1276287905]
Not to drift too far off topic, but Bill Maher had it right:
We're becoming a feminine society. Feelings are more important than facts. Sensitivity is more important than truth. Children are more important than people. Committment is more important than individuality. And safety is more important than fun

This case is a pretty good example of that. Kinda bums me out a bit.
[/quote]
Bill Maher.

[Creature Feature]

[quote author=Ron_NYC link=topic=25671.msg1645052#msg1645052 date=1276287638]
:lol: Seriously. CF, what the fuck?
[/quote]

Like i said, i was just being difficult. I know its not the same :-P

As for the rescue stuff, there are "no rescue wilderness" policies in some remote locations. Basically means if you choose to risk your life out in a remote location then you deal with the consequences. No helicopter rescue team. No satellite images. No government rescue. This sailing venture seems like it should fit under that someplace. Or, at the very least, have an arrangement of some sort worked out that doesnt require another country to pay for your dumb choices.

[Ron_NYC]

[quote author=Creature Feature link=topic=25671.msg1645060#msg1645060 date=1276288211]
Like i said, i was just being difficult. I know its not the same :-P

As for the rescue stuff, there are "no rescue wilderness" policies in some remote locations. Basically means if you choose to risk your life out in a remote location then you deal with the consequences. No helicopter rescue team. No satellite images. No government rescue. This sailing venture seems like it should fit under that someplace. Or, at the very least, have an arrangement of some sort worked out that doesnt require another country to pay for your dumb choices.
[/quote]
Sounds awesome. I like it a lot. :)

[PCP777]

[quote author=GothaBella link=topic=25671.msg1645023#msg1645023 date=1276285711]
There is a lady on the news right now that is saying that this is child abuse.

To add a point my husband mentioned before she was found-what about pirates?

I'm certainly not one to break my kids spirit, force MY opinions on them, or limit their potential. I would be a nervous wreck if my oldest could drive, but I would let him. A small part of me is really relieved that he can't.

As far as comparing this trip to driving, there would have to be more of these sailing trips to compare statistics.
[/quote]


This trip was carefully planned with good financing and preparation. She had a blue water boat that was proven and had made a circumnavigation before. It was a 2001 Open 40 model that had been completely refitted for this voyage.  (Watch the video I posted in this thread!)

Sailboats last forever, mine is a 1979. Basically you have an aluminum stick stuck into a piece of plastic. Cruisers know where the pirate hot spots are and typically avoid them. People sail across oceans and around the world all the time. With modern technology, predicting and avoiding dangerous weather systems has become so much easier and more accurate. GPS has replaced sextants and dead reckoning.


I guess the point is that she survived because she was prepared. She didn't set off the beacosn because she was in danger, she did it because the damage to her rig made it where the boat was unsailable. She's in perfect health.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEAVJiKO69o&feature=player_embedded

I hope they're able to salvage Wild Eyes, all she's missing is her mast and rigging. I hope she gets to try again.

[deeply shaded]

[quote author=Mortis link=topic=25671.msg1645055#msg1645055 date=1276287757]
Pirates are only in a few places, and don't generally have ships capable of reaching the center of the ocean, much less getting away...... Closer to shore, I guarantee you all kinds of people in boats will be accompanying her.
This girl was under a microscope the whole time, had panic buttons, sat nav, radio contact regularly, and a deadman switch that would send automatic distress call.  They found her in open ocean very quickly.


I think a 9 yo and 16 yo are worlds apart, but the 9 yo kid's dad was with him....Did the kid who climbed Everest die?  I'm sure he was with adults. 
Hate to say it but yeah I have to admit.... sometimes shit happens, but not enough that we should all become scared complacent sheep, and not experience life or adventure.
In the 50's or 60's the world would have embraced this as a whole....  We still talk about people who did great shit hundreds of years later.... Kids need heroes and role models, and really, I would rather my kids look up to a girl who did what she dreamed of ,(or tried), beat the odds and faced the danger , than a football player or a politician, or a movie star.


You mean that just because something has been done then no one else should be allowed (or god forbid want to), until they reach a certain age that's arbitrary and changes from country to country, hell even state to state.
I mean really.... you can say that if it's already been done it's pointless for anyone else to do it?
[/quote]

It's completely pointless. I mean, what is the point? Other than ego boosting it proves nothing, it does nothing to further knowledge of the area, it doesn't help anyone. So yeah, pointless. It's for fun or kicks or bragging rights.

I wouldn't care as much if they were strictly on their own and went into it knowing there wasn't going to be a huge rescue operation to save them if they had trouble. It's pretty pathetic when young kids die doing this stupid stuff, though. Kids are treated differently than adults for a reason. It's because they don't think quite right yet.

[PCP777]

[quote author=Creature Feature link=topic=25671.msg1645060#msg1645060 date=1276288211]
Like i said, i was just being difficult. I know its not the same :-P

As for the rescue stuff, there are "no rescue wilderness" policies in some remote locations. Basically means if you choose to risk your life out in a remote location then you deal with the consequences. No helicopter rescue team. No satellite images. No government rescue. This sailing venture seems like it should fit under that someplace. Or, at the very least, have an arrangement of some sort worked out that doesnt require another country to pay for your dumb choices.
[/quote]


She wasn't an inexperienced sailor who just cast off her lines and hoped for the best. My bet is that she was hit by a rogue wave. 30 foot seas and 50 knot winds can be handled by an Open 40. This was an extremely well financed mission with an extremely well trained sailor. When you're at sea, it is what it is. Look at some of the preparation she was getting in Capetown where she had to come on due to some damaged equipment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZdAlE7gsDs


The only thing I would disagree with was her leaving in January, putting her in the Indian and Southern Ocean in winter time. I'm sure this was carefully considered.

[quote author=deeply shaded link=topic=25671.msg1645076#msg1645076 date=1276289320]
It's completely pointless. I mean, what is the point? Other than ego boosting it proves nothing, it does nothing to further knowledge of the area, it doesn't help anyone. So yeah, pointless. It's for fun or kicks or bragging rights.

I wouldn't care as much if they were strictly on their own and went into it knowing there wasn't going to be a huge rescue operation to save them if they had trouble. It's pretty pathetic when young kids die doing this stupid stuff, though. Kids are treated differently than adults for a reason. It's because they don't think quite right yet.
[/quote]


That's like saying all sports are pointless. I don't know of any kids that have died trying to single hand and circumnavigate the planet. Think how much our country spends on rescue for teenage car accidents.

The maritime authority, which paid to charter the plane, said it would not be seeking compensation for the search, which initially fell just outside of Australia's search and rescue region.

"That's the way the system runs," search coordinator Kinley said. "We would expect people to rescue any Australian yachtsman (in these conditions). It's our obligation to do this and we'll fulfill those obligations as Australia does."

They are not worried about it, as it all comes out in the wash.

[deeply shaded]

I get that you're all for it PCP. You sail and are familiar with it and to you it's not a big deal.

To me she's doing it for no reason other than for bragging rights, and risking your life to do it is kinda dumb, and you should be responsible for yourself in those cases.

Of course that will never happen. I mean people have been climbing mountains forever and continue to be saved. Also, there is no point in cruises or any other water play except people who do it to make a living, so it would rule out anyone being saved except fishermen. Being saved 100 feet from shore is a lot different than hundreds of miles, though.

I just think it's extremely dangerous for what you get from it and to let your kid do it no matter how well trained and equipped he/she was isn't a good parenting decision in my opinion.

[deeply shaded]

[quote author=PCP777 link=topic=25671.msg1645088#msg1645088 date=1276290281]

That's like saying all sports are pointless. I don't know of any kids that have died trying to single hand and circumnavigate the planet. Think how much our country spends on rescue for teenage car accidents.

[/quote]

They are pointless. We all do pointless things all the time. Anything we do for fun is mostly pointless. I don't know why anyone is trying to make this into a world-changing event. She's sailing a boat.

[neenerneener]

[quote author=Mortis link=topic=25671.msg1644925#msg1644925 date=1276278330]
And in the meantime ruled the most powerful and advanced country on earth (arguably), and hunted crocodiles with a spear, and dealt with all the shit any king deals with.  He was influential enough that he was killed. I learned in humanities that it was because he was converting the country's religion, although I can't say for it wasn't over something else.

Anyway. you can belitttle,  but it was an accomplishment, from what I learned he wasn't a puppet king, he was married, and he made decisions.  He was purposely erased from history because the murder wasn't justifiable, not overlooked out of mediocrity.

This is however just what I learned from one professor... no one really knows a lot of this stuff. He may have been a choad for all I really know.
[/quote]

see, i learned the opposite.  :lol:  and being killed doesnt mean that one is influential, it just means that someone else wants the throne.  :lol:

also...

but new research indicates his cause of death was probably more mundane -- complications from a broken leg and malaria.

Examination of Tut's body and his genes confirmed that he suffered from a cleft palate and clubfoot, and showed he had a degenerative bone condition called Kohler disease II.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/17/science/la-sci-king-tut17-2010feb17