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Thread: The political debate thread...

  1. #1176
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    [quote author=TheFavoriteDaughter link=topic=17857.msg1678111#msg1678111 date=1279855637]
    (1) I live in Arizona and this is a bunch of conservative bullshit. Has not happened.

    (2) You should read up on the politicians here and the laws that were passed shortly after 1070. This is exactly what they want.

    There's an immigration debate thread here somewhere to discuss this further.

    [/quote]


    I did a quick look for an immigration thread, but didn't see one.  This one really wasn't being used so I just posted here.  We can move if someone wants us to.

    I saw a picture of the Governor standing in front of one of the signs, so I don't think that's bs.

    I am curious about why you say there are politicians who want laws to harass Mexicans though.  The easy answer is to just say, "Screw it, let them stay here illegally."  Dealing with illegals is much harder than NOT dealing with them.  So how do politicians benefit from a law like this?

    Again, I'm very liberal socially and I think there should be a path to citizenship for illegals like they've discussed.  They should be able to become citizens and pay taxes just like me.  I'm for all of that.  I just don't see how AZ has any choice but to take matters into their own hands until the federal government can get control of the border and figure out how to make legal citizens out of those that want to come live here.
    If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve. - Jello Biafra

  2. #1177
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    Same here. I got to this:

    I understand that there are fears that it could lead to racial profiling.  What I don't understand is how that would actually play out in real life.  Is the fear that cops will go up to random Mexicans and ask them for ID? 

    And I was too confused by how someone would be puzzled by that scenario to even continue reading.
    I am puzzled as to how that would work.  My understanding is that cops will still need a reason before inquiring about their citizenship.  I've read through it and the key part of the law states, "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency…where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…"  So if they pull someone over and they have no ID and don't speak English, it's reasonable to determine their immigration status.  That would be the most common scenario for the law to be applied.  What do you think would be a fairer way of enforcing immigration laws?  Or should they not be enforced at all, in your opinion?
    If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve. - Jello Biafra

  3. #1178
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    [quote author=Evolved1 link=topic=17857.msg1680543#msg1680543 date=1280184321]
    I am puzzled as to how that would work.  My understanding is that cops will still need a reason before inquiring about their citizenship.  I've read through it and the key part of the law states, "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency…where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…"  So if they pull someone over and they have no ID and don't speak English, it's reasonable to determine their immigration status.  That would be the most common scenario for the law to be applied.  What do you think would be a fairer way of enforcing immigration laws?  Or should they not be enforced at all, in your opinion?
    [/quote]
    Have you ever had any experience with a cop, ever? They find a reason and they're generally above questioning.

  4. #1179
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    [quote author=bowieluva link=topic=17857.msg1680681#msg1680681 date=1280192588]
    Have you ever had any experience with a cop, ever? They find a reason and they're generally above questioning.
    [/quote]

    Yes, I've been arrested.  Your concern seems to lie with cops who abuse their power.  Any cops who stop people for no justifiable reason have been doing that well before this AZ law, so let's set those cops aside for the sake of this discussion, can we?  Let's pretend a cop makes a legitimate stop and has valid reasons to believe that the driver is an undocumented alien, what issue do you take with them calling ICE (or whatever they do) and determining their immigration status?
    If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve. - Jello Biafra

  5. #1180
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    [quote author=Evolved1 link=topic=17857.msg1680697#msg1680697 date=1280193840]
    Yes, I've been arrested.  Your concern seems to lie with cops who abuse their power.  Any cops who stop people for no justifiable reason have been doing that well before this AZ law, so let's set those cops aside for the sake of this discussion, can we?  Let's pretend a cop makes a legitimate stop and has valid reasons to believe that the driver is an undocumented alien, what issue do you take with them calling ICE (or whatever they do) and determining their immigration status?
    [/quote]
    Well, my own opinion on immigration aside, since I think it's complete bullshit, yes, my concern lies with cops who abuse their power, which is most of them.

  6. #1181
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    [quote author=Evolved1 link=topic=17857.msg1680697#msg1680697 date=1280193840]
    Yes, I've been arrested.  Your concern seems to lie with cops who abuse their power.  Any cops who stop people for no justifiable reason have been doing that well before this AZ law, so let's set those cops aside for the sake of this discussion, can we?  Let's pretend a cop makes a legitimate stop and has valid reasons to believe that the driver is an undocumented alien, what issue do you take with them calling ICE (or whatever they do) and determining their immigration status?
    [/quote]

    if the suspected alien can produce documentation, it isnt the cops responsibility to do anything more but issue a traffic citation unless the guy is wanted or has outstanding warrants.  The problem is we could have Jethro or Jim wasting police resources checking with ICE about every Latino he pulls over; meanwhile, police departments throughout the country are cutting back staff, patrols, and community outreach.  It's just a poorly conceived/tough to succesfully enforce law and really should be left up to Homeland Security/Secret Service(if documents are forged to get licenses). 

  7. #1182
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    Hispanic people are not the only people here illegally, and all this does is encourage racial profiling. No Aussie is going to be asked to show ID.

  8. #1183
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    [quote author=bowieluva link=topic=17857.msg1680717#msg1680717 date=1280195028]
    Hispanic people are not the only people here illegally, and all this does is encourage racial profiling. No Aussie is going to be asked to show ID.
    [/quote]

    Right, I would not expect many Canadians to be pulled over either, even with their beady eyes. 

    It'll be Hispanics that are targeted and that shouldnt be questioned.

  9. #1184
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    [quote author=bowieluva link=topic=17857.msg1680701#msg1680701 date=1280194185]
    Well, my own opinion on immigration aside, since I think it's complete bullshit, yes, my concern lies with cops who abuse their power, which is most of them.
    [/quote]

    Fair enough.  If you believe that most cops are crooked then I can understand why any new laws would be unacceptable to you.

    if the suspected alien can produce documentation, it isnt the cops responsibility to do anything more but issue a traffic citation unless the guy is wanted or has outstanding warrants.  The problem is we could have Jethro or Jim wasting police resources checking with ICE about every Latino he pulls over; meanwhile, police departments throughout the country are cutting back staff, patrols, and community outreach.  It's just a poorly conceived/tough to succesfully enforce law and really should be left up to Homeland Security/Secret Service(if documents are forged to get licenses).
    If some produce documentation, then that means they won't have to waste time calling ICE on every Latino, just the undocumented ones.  I don't think that AZ cops should be the only ones enforcing it, but can we honestly say that ICE and Homeland Security don't need some help?  And from what I've read, most Arizonans support the law, so that tells me there is something to it.
    If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve. - Jello Biafra

  10. #1185
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    [quote author=Evolved1 link=topic=17857.msg1680726#msg1680726 date=1280195839]
    Fair enough.  If you believe that most cops are crooked then I can understand why any new laws would be unacceptable to you.

    If some produce documentation, then that means they won't have to waste time calling ICE on every Latino, just the undocumented ones.  I don't think that AZ cops should be the only ones enforcing it, but can we honestly say that ICE and Homeland Security don't need some help?  And from what I've read, most Arizonans support the law, so that tells me there is something to it.
    [/quote]

    http://www.azfamily.com/video/featur...-91769419.html


    [quote author=Evolved1 link=topic=17857.msg1680543#msg1680543 date=1280184321]
    I am puzzled as to how that would work.  My understanding is that cops will still need a reason before inquiring about their citizenship.  I've read through it and the key part of the law states, "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency…where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…"  So if they pull someone over and they have no ID and don't speak English, it's reasonable to determine their immigration status.  That would be the most common scenario for the law to be applied.  What do you think would be a fairer way of enforcing immigration laws?  Or should they not be enforced at all, in your opinion?
    [/quote]

    This is racial profiling. I live in AZ and there are veeery many U.S. citizens with super thick Spanish accents. Even some who were born and raised here like the guy in the above link.
    Suzanne Knight (21) brutally raped and devoured 3 toddlers while on a meth binge before hanging herself Marky69: If those toddlers didnt want to be eaten then they shouldnt of looked so god damned delicious. RIP Suzanne

  11. #1186
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    [quote author=TheFavoriteDaughter link=topic=17857.msg1680773#msg1680773 date=1280199241]
    http://www.azfamily.com/video/featur...-91769419.html


    This is racial profiling. I live in AZ and there are veeery many U.S. citizens with super thick Spanish accents. Even some who were born and raised here like the guy in the above link.
    [/quote]


    The link you posted wasn't clear on all the details about that particular case, but as with any law, mistakes can happen.  I don't think that will be the norm.  I live in southern California where super thick Spanish accents are common too.  I don't think using that as one possible criteria among others to have suspicions about their immigration status is racial profiling.  I think it's just common sense really.  Arizona is very close to Mexico, not Australia or Canada.  Mexico is a country that their citizens are looking to leave.  It's not a stretch to say that 99% of the illegal aliens there are from somewhere south of the border.  I'm not saying arrest them or deport them all, I'm saying the opposite actually.  I think they should be given a chance to become legal citizens, just like Obama has proposed.  They should have citizenship classes that they can take for free to learn English, how voting and taxes work and all that.  I would like to see the same law happen here.  It would be great for our economy and would benefit us all I think, even the Latino community.  They wouldn't have to feel that burden of always being wary of getting caught, and they could safely go to the police when they are a crime victim.  I think it would be a win-win for everyone except those who are up to no good.
    If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve. - Jello Biafra

  12. #1187
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    http://mydeathspace.com/smf/index.php?topic=25360.0


  13. #1188
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    Don't know if it's been posted anywhere but

    Judge strikes down California's ban on same-sex marriage
    http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/08/04/cal...1&iref=BN1


  14. #1189
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    [quote author=holly link=topic=17857.msg1688462#msg1688462 date=1280960759]
    Don't know if it's been posted anywhere but

    Judge strikes down California's ban on same-sex marriage
    http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/08/04/cal...1&iref=BN1


    [/quote]
    Everyone I know is so happy. FUUUU Mormons! FFFUUUUU!

  15. #1190
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    [quote author=holly link=topic=17857.msg1688462#msg1688462 date=1280960759]
    Don't know if it's been posted anywhere but

    Judge strikes down California's ban on same-sex marriage
    http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/08/04/cal...1&iref=BN1


    [/quote]
    It is about damned time ::does happy dance::

  16. #1191
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    :lol:

    There is a news report starting to make the rounds amongst the MSM on a study that claims to have discovered why conservatives tend to be happier than liberals and it is just the sort of bilge that the MSM loves to promulgate. We may see more of it over the next several days because, while it is titled "Conservatives Happier Than Liberals,"  it is basically saying that the reason conservatives are happier is because they just don't care about other people. This purported research claims to pinpoint the reason conservatives are happier and it is because they have theirs and they don't care if everyone else is poor and downtrodden. In contrast they claim liberals are less happy because they care more about people and are all heartbroken that people suffer "inequalities."

    Yes, they are telling us that if you're a happy conservative, it's because you are a hateful, meanie. Thank you New York University.

    Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/warner-todd-huston/2008/05/07/new-study-conservatives-are-happier-because-they-hate-everyone#ixzz0wcXVSqpu
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Ron was the best part, hands down.

  17. #1192
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    That would explain why I'm so middle of the road.  I hate everyone and I'm unhappy.

  18. #1193
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    Re: The political debate thread...

    [quote author=HyperU2 link=topic=17857.msg1695299#msg1695299 date=1281830270]
    That would explain why I'm so middle of the road.  I hate everyone and I'm unhappy.
    [/quote]
    :lol:
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Ron was the best part, hands down.

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