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Thread: MDS pets

  1. #15576
    Senior Member Angiebla's Avatar
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    I got rejected for the kitten because I have a child under 4.

    "The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin

    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Chelsea, if you are a ghost and reading mds, I command you to walk into the light.

  2. #15577
    Senior Member kevansvault's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    I got rejected for the kitten because I have a child under 4.
    Boooooooooooo!

    I'm sorry Angie. That suckksssss!
    Don't like what I have to say? I respect that. Now go fuck yourself.

  3. #15578
    Don't drink sanitizer! raisedbywolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    I got rejected for the kitten because I have a child under 4.
    I'm so sorry. Don't give up-keep looking! I looked at like a million dogs and got blown off on one I really wanted before I got Sky.

    I haven't heard a word about my application yet. I am not sure how long to wait before inquiring again.

  4. #15579
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    Two of my pets. The one on top is a Lemon Jake from the waters of Lake Malawi in Africa, the one on the bottom is a Frontosa from the waters of Lake Tanganyika in Africa.


  5. #15580
    Don't drink sanitizer! raisedbywolves's Avatar
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    Still no reply from the rescue...I even emailed them back again. I get that they are volunteers and are busy, but I guess I am going to give up on this one.

  6. #15581
    Senior Member Angiebla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    Still no reply from the rescue...I even emailed them back again. I get that they are volunteers and are busy, but I guess I am going to give up on this one.
    I’m sorry. You would think they would want to adopt out pets ASAP to make more room at the foster homes. Some rescues aren’t very organized.

    "The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin

    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Chelsea, if you are a ghost and reading mds, I command you to walk into the light.

  7. #15582
    Cranjis McBasketball Nic B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    I’m sorry. You would think they would want to adopt out pets ASAP to make more room at the foster homes. Some rescues aren’t very organized.
    Exactly what I was thinking! Those poor dogs, just waiting for a good home....then one comes along and nothing happens. It's not right!


    Quote Originally Posted by marakisses View Post
    yes i said i will leave it under you storage he said cuddle with me i said shut up it over??? what am i doing wrong??

  8. #15583
    Don't drink sanitizer! raisedbywolves's Avatar
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    I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt because I really want this dog. I'm afraid though of passing up another dog in the meantime, because another rescue is offering me a different dog. The one that won't answer is my first choice, but I don't want to miss out on both. Ugh. Not sure what to do.

  9. #15584
    Don't drink sanitizer! raisedbywolves's Avatar
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    I put in an application to foster with a more local rescue. I'm really sad the one rescue didn't get back with me, but my Sky is lonely and I think she needs a friend.

  10. #15585
    Senior Member Angiebla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    I put in an application to foster with a more local rescue. I'm really sad the one rescue didn't get back with me, but my Sky is lonely and I think she needs a friend.
    That’s very nice of you, I don’t think I could be a foster person. I watched a kitty for a month for my friend, and I wanted to keep her so bad.

    I’m sorry the rescue didn’t get back to you. Their loss.

    "The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin

    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Chelsea, if you are a ghost and reading mds, I command you to walk into the light.

  11. #15586
    Don't drink sanitizer! raisedbywolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    That’s very nice of you, I don’t think I could be a foster person. I watched a kitty for a month for my friend, and I wanted to keep her so bad.

    I’m sorry the rescue didn’t get back to you. Their loss.
    I guess if I get really attached at this point I can just adopt. I am not sure if they are going to want me anyway. They replied and instead of talking about fostering they are trying to push two bonded dogs that need to be adopted. I don't want two dogs for adoption. I only want one more permanent one, but would be willing to also foster. I feel like I am not meant to get a dog at this point.

    I sent the other rescue a message telling them that I wanted to withdraw my application for the Chow that I had applied for next week, and they replied within 2 minutes telling me "thank you. You are too far away and we wouldn't have adopted to you". I am so mad! First of all, why couldn't you have told me that immediately? I wouldn't have spent a full week waiting. Second of all, I explained that I would be willing to fly out to the rescue and drive home with the dog...the same way I did with my one I adopted in April. They wouldn't have had to arrange transportation or anything. I sent them a long letter with my application explaining all of this. Ugh.

    I wonder if they would have just continued to ignore me forever if I hadn't withdrawn my application?! I also told them that the dog was an amazing dog and I hoped he got a really wonderful home, to which they replied that yes he was and they would have no problem at all adopting him out. Asshats! The real problem is that the dogs lose out in this circumstance where rescues act like this.

  12. #15587
    Senior Member Angiebla's Avatar
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    Don’t give up hope. And don’t take the 2 dogs if you don’t want them.

    I don’t think that rescue would have replied if you hadn’t have withdrew your application. They sound very passive-aggressive.

    When I worked in the clinic (it was low cost so a ton of rescues used us for spay/neutering), I began to side eye some rescues. I met some great ones, but others, not so much. Some of them are run by control freak bullies and I felt bad for the dogs in their care. One rescue didn’t test their dogs and brought in a bunch of puppies with distemper. Distemper is devastating and there is no treatment. They tried to say the dogs got it from our clinic, but the dogs showed neurological signs right away as soon as they were dropped off. They seemed clueless about some things like parvo. I

    "The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin

    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Chelsea, if you are a ghost and reading mds, I command you to walk into the light.

  13. #15588
    Don't drink sanitizer! raisedbywolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiebla View Post
    Don’t give up hope. And don’t take the 2 dogs if you don’t want them.

    I don’t think that rescue would have replied if you hadn’t have withdrew your application. They sound very passive-aggressive.

    When I worked in the clinic (it was low cost so a ton of rescues used us for spay/neutering), I began to side eye some rescues. I met some great ones, but others, not so much. Some of them are run by control freak bullies and I felt bad for the dogs in their care. One rescue didn’t test their dogs and brought in a bunch of puppies with distemper. Distemper is devastating and there is no treatment. They tried to say the dogs got it from our clinic, but the dogs showed neurological signs right away as soon as they were dropped off. They seemed clueless about some things like parvo. I
    I think you are correct. I found some old reviews of this rescue and someone had left them a somewhat negative review and they went totally nuclear on that person. Multiple persons were attacking the reviewer and belittling her. I don't want any part of that. The first rescue I contacted before I got Sky acted the same way in that they just totally ignored me, and I have now found out some more info on the person that runs it and she is all about her. I think some people get into rescue to get glorified, not to help the animals.

    The person I got Sky from was amazing. I am working with her again, and hoping to find the right dog. The local rescue got back with me and the dog I offered to foster is totally unsocialized and not good with males or females, so he has to be an only dog in the household. I told them to keep me in mind if they needed a foster in the future, but that I couldn't take the 2 dogs they wanted me to adopt.

  14. #15589
    Senior Member puzzld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbywolves View Post
    Asshats! The real problem is that the dogs lose out in this circumstance where rescues act like this.
    Yep. So many animals need homes and so many rescues act like they have the last six dogs on earth and need to find some preconceived "perfect" home. It's not in the animals best interest. Sorry you ladies are running up against rescue nazis.
    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    lol at Nestle being some vicious smiter, she's the nicest person on this site besides probably puzzld. Or at least the last person to resort to smiting.
    Quote Originally Posted by nestlequikie View Post
    Why on earth would I smite you when I can ban you?

  15. #15590
    Don't drink sanitizer! raisedbywolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzld View Post
    Yep. So many animals need homes and so many rescues act like they have the last six dogs on earth and need to find some preconceived "perfect" home. It's not in the animals best interest. Sorry you ladies are running up against rescue nazis.
    There are really good rescues out there and I'm just going to go back to the one I know is awesome. It's sad some rescues are run by people with a personal agenda, but most are truly just trying to help the animals.

  16. #15591
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    Esme is not as active as before, all she does is stay in her heated cat pad. She surely is growing old and I am not that sure as to whether getting her a younger companion will be a good idea.

  17. #15592
    Senior Member marycontrary's Avatar
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    My 10yr old bengal cat became suddenly ill Saturday night. No real options here for vet care on a Sunday. He was drooling a steady stream and holding his mouth open and an occasional sneezing and huffing. He spent a good part of the day laying in his litter box. Sunday night he cried during the night and 3 times emptied the cat fountain by paddling in it. I would awaken to the sound of splashing and find him pawing at the water. Monday morning I found him in the kitchen sink. Really odd and unusual behavior as he isnt a cat prone to playing in the water. I assumed it was a dental problem and he appeared to be quite miserable and I think he had pain. I took him to the vet who said he had a bad molar. I left him for anesthesia and cleaning with extractions of any bad teeth. They extracted one pre-molar and said his other teeth were in good health and the molar he thought was bad was fine, but he had a bladder infection and they gave him an IV antibiotic. His labs apparently were all normal other than the urine and he has been returned to me loaded up on a pain medication that will be effective for a couple days. He's not eaten all weekend or had any drink. I know he got IV fluids, but since his return home he has shown no interest in food or drink, but he is obsessed with the cat fountain. He keeps going to the fountain and just sitting there. I used a syringe and gave him a tiny bit of water, which he swallowed but really showed no interest in the water. He shows no interest in food and putting a bit in his mouth, he just lets it fall out. He will shut his mouth on occasion and I have seen him swallow, but he is off in another world and seems oblivious to everything around him. I know he is pretty high right now on drugs, but I'm so worried and fear there is something horrible going on. The vet thinks the bladder infection was causing his pain and drooling, but quickly adds that he did have a bad tooth. I spent 1K on care today and he still acts like he is dying. My daughter picked him up from the vet for me since it was on her way home and she had to wait while they pulled his IV line. He came home with a wrap on his leg with no instructions on when it can be removed, so I did it just now. The take home instructions just caution to keep him warm and quiet and not let him eat or drink too much. He won't lay in a nice warm bed because he just wants to sit next to the fountain on the cold floor with his mouth open and drooling a constant stream of saliva. He doesn't respond to talking to him or make eye contact. If I touch his face, he rubs against my hand a bit, but still seems disconnected to the world outside his head. I am so worried. My last sick pet didn't end well and her illness was also sudden. His detachment behavior began in Sunday, so I'm not attributing it to his anesthesia and meds. Moe is a large cat, 16 pounds of pure muscle, and has always been super affectionate and demanding of attention. He is so large and strong that when he wants a cuddle, he pretty much forces the issue and gets what he wants. He makes a lot of eye contact normally and is talkative so his behavior is really alarming me. He also has separation anxiety if I go outside to garden and annoys the family with crying at the window until I come back in. He doesn't do that if I actually get in the car and leave. I guess that is what concerns me most, his detachment and lack of awareness of the surroundings. No crystals in his urine, just red and white cells, so it sounds like we aren't dealing with FUS thank goodness. I'm going to be really pissed if he has cancer or some deadly cat virus and he got put thru anesthesia and shit for clean and polished teeth. I'm to bring him back in a couple days if no improvement. I just don't have faith that the vet is on the right track. Maybe I'm all doom and gloom over lack of sleep and worry. I hope he improves tomorrow. I think I'll crate him tonight just so he'll be warm for he night.
    Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups

  18. #15593
    Don't drink sanitizer! raisedbywolves's Avatar
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    So sorry you and Moe are going through this! I don't know much about cats so I don't have any real advice, but hopefully Angie or someone who know about cats and vet care will pop on later.

    I know it's horrible when your baby is sick and you don't know what to do to help them. Any improvement today?

  19. #15594
    Senior Member Angiebla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marycontrary View Post
    My 10yr old bengal cat became suddenly ill Saturday night. No real options here for vet care on a Sunday. He was drooling a steady stream and holding his mouth open and an occasional sneezing and huffing. He spent a good part of the day laying in his litter box. Sunday night he cried during the night and 3 times emptied the cat fountain by paddling in it. I would awaken to the sound of splashing and find him pawing at the water. Monday morning I found him in the kitchen sink. Really odd and unusual behavior as he isnt a cat prone to playing in the water. I assumed it was a dental problem and he appeared to be quite miserable and I think he had pain. I took him to the vet who said he had a bad molar. I left him for anesthesia and cleaning with extractions of any bad teeth. They extracted one pre-molar and said his other teeth were in good health and the molar he thought was bad was fine, but he had a bladder infection and they gave him an IV antibiotic. His labs apparently were all normal other than the urine and he has been returned to me loaded up on a pain medication that will be effective for a couple days. He's not eaten all weekend or had any drink. I know he got IV fluids, but since his return home he has shown no interest in food or drink, but he is obsessed with the cat fountain. He keeps going to the fountain and just sitting there. I used a syringe and gave him a tiny bit of water, which he swallowed but really showed no interest in the water. He shows no interest in food and putting a bit in his mouth, he just lets it fall out. He will shut his mouth on occasion and I have seen him swallow, but he is off in another world and seems oblivious to everything around him. I know he is pretty high right now on drugs, but I'm so worried and fear there is something horrible going on. The vet thinks the bladder infection was causing his pain and drooling, but quickly adds that he did have a bad tooth. I spent 1K on care today and he still acts like he is dying. My daughter picked him up from the vet for me since it was on her way home and she had to wait while they pulled his IV line. He came home with a wrap on his leg with no instructions on when it can be removed, so I did it just now. The take home instructions just caution to keep him warm and quiet and not let him eat or drink too much. He won't lay in a nice warm bed because he just wants to sit next to the fountain on the cold floor with his mouth open and drooling a constant stream of saliva. He doesn't respond to talking to him or make eye contact. If I touch his face, he rubs against my hand a bit, but still seems disconnected to the world outside his head. I am so worried. My last sick pet didn't end well and her illness was also sudden. His detachment behavior began in Sunday, so I'm not attributing it to his anesthesia and meds. Moe is a large cat, 16 pounds of pure muscle, and has always been super affectionate and demanding of attention. He is so large and strong that when he wants a cuddle, he pretty much forces the issue and gets what he wants. He makes a lot of eye contact normally and is talkative so his behavior is really alarming me. He also has separation anxiety if I go outside to garden and annoys the family with crying at the window until I come back in. He doesn't do that if I actually get in the car and leave. I guess that is what concerns me most, his detachment and lack of awareness of the surroundings. No crystals in his urine, just red and white cells, so it sounds like we aren't dealing with FUS thank goodness. I'm going to be really pissed if he has cancer or some deadly cat virus and he got put thru anesthesia and shit for clean and polished teeth. I'm to bring him back in a couple days if no improvement. I just don't have faith that the vet is on the right track. Maybe I'm all doom and gloom over lack of sleep and worry. I hope he improves tomorrow. I think I'll crate him tonight just so he'll be warm for he night.
    A couple thoughts...my one cat used to act like this when returning from the vet-traumatized and out of it. I?m not sure if that?s the reason his. behavior seems off.

    I just went through the not eating and drinking thing with my cat for 6 months. She would sit near her food bowl and meow, I would feed her, and she wouldn?t eat. It?s frustrating. Syringe feeding water is good, you may need to do that with food. You may want to ask the vet for Cerenia (anti nausea meds) or appetite stimulants. There is a food called A/D that is expensive but works most of the time. Your vet should have some.

    Did they take blood?

    You can pm me if you want. I hope moe is back to normal soon.

    "The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin

    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Chelsea, if you are a ghost and reading mds, I command you to walk into the light.

  20. #15595
    Senior Member Angiebla's Avatar
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    Also pain killers (bupe, tramadol) are very bitter and make cats drool.

    "The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin

    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Chelsea, if you are a ghost and reading mds, I command you to walk into the light.

  21. #15596
    Cranjis McBasketball Nic B's Avatar
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    Does your cat eat dry food? Not sure if it's the same for dogs, but when my dog stopped eating her dry food (which was super uncommon for labs, they live for food) I tried wet food and she ate that. Obviously something else is wrong but if you are worried about her getting worse from not eating, it may be worth a shot to change it up.


    Quote Originally Posted by marakisses View Post
    yes i said i will leave it under you storage he said cuddle with me i said shut up it over??? what am i doing wrong??

  22. #15597
    Senior Member Angiebla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic B View Post
    Does your cat eat dry food? Not sure if it's the same for dogs, but when my dog stopped eating her dry food (which was super uncommon for labs, they live for food) I tried wet food and she ate that. Obviously something else is wrong but if you are worried about her getting worse from not eating, it may be worth a shot to change it up.
    My cat switched over to wet food too. I forgot to mention that.

    She got super picky so we just got a can of every type of food and found she liked the multi packs of meow mix (little cups).

    "The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin

    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Chelsea, if you are a ghost and reading mds, I command you to walk into the light.

  23. #15598
    Senior Member marycontrary's Avatar
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    Back to the vet today. He had a panel of blood tests run pre op for anesthesia risk. The checked blood counts, liver, kidney, cardiac enzymes etc. All normal except elevated white count. Hadn't eaten or drank after having his tooth pulled. They expressed urine yesterday and it was bloody with no crystals so diagnosed bladder infection and gave injection of antibiotic and he got long acting pain meds there too. Today they examined him and he had a full bladder but they couldn't express any urine, so they cathed him. Very bloody urine. They don't think he has a urinary blockage. Hoping the antibiotic kicks in soon. I'm so surprised by the bladder infection as he has been absolutely fine and active and no peeing outside of litter box. He was dehydrated today, so he got a fluid bolus under the skin and they showed me how to do it and sent me home with the remainder of the IV bag. A lot more sneezing today and low and behold my other cat is now sneezing. It sounds like he hit the trifecta of a bad tooth, bladder infection and some cat herpes virus thing and it's kicking his ass. We talked about Hills stinky food, giving tuna water and diluted chicken baby food by syringe. He has no interest and doesn't even try to smell it. He can swallow and use his tongue and I got probably 2 ounces of fluid in him by syringe. He's still despondent, although letting him out of the cat carrier at the vet perked him up. He acted normal for a hot second, then back to sick kitty. They xrayed face and chest. Heart and lungs fine, sinuses look okay and no obvious oral problems. Came home from the vet and he went directly to the fountain and drank. I may have to drive him around periodically I guess because it certainly perks him up. They gave me a tube of high calorie paste that i can sort of squeeze into his mouth. It should increase his appetite, but didn't today, but he did swallow it instead of spitting it out like when I tried tuna flakes. The cat virus thing makes sense. My daughter now lives with us and brought her 3 cats. They had cat colds maybe 6 months ago. She said one cat was worse than the others, but in general they were much better within 2 weeks. They weren't as down as Moe, but they were young and didn't have a bladder infection too. The vet said once they have it they carry it in their bodies and periodically can shed the virus. One of her cats began sneezing maybe a month ago at the same time I was really suffering from tree pollen allergy. I closed the windows and turned AC on for my comfort with hayfever and her cat's sneezing improved. I figured the cat had hay fever, but apparently it's a virus and both my cats now have it. The other cat (faux) is the same age and seems okay other than random sneezing fits but his sneezing just started today. No ones noses are running or crusty. Moe has a goopy looking eye now, so I think he's just feeling shitty and cant breath well through his nose. He probably can't smell and that doesn't help with appetite. I'm going to dilute pureed chicken babyfood and use the syringe to feed him and try to get at least 100ccs of fluid in him a day, so I don't have to stick a needle in him and bolus him. I'll split it into 4 feedings and place him in the litter box. It probably hurts to pee. As crappy as he appears, I do see improvement. Still holding his mouth open, but not as wide and the drool is a good 90% less. He got meloxican, convenia and simbadol at 3pm Monday. I offer dry and wet food for the cats. Thank goodness for Sam's club as friskies pate and purina complete cat are about half the cost there. This isn't my first cat rodeo with anorexia. We had a 18yo Maine Coon who appeared to be failing. She had started falling from high places and we were having a heck of a time keeping her from jumping up to high places. We took her to the vet to have her put to sleep and the vet thought it was premature and did a check up and she had a bladder infection. She also refused food and water and we did pretty much the same deal for her and she recovered and lived another year and it was a decent year, aside from old age skinny and greasy coat. Moe looks good, but in reality at 10yrs he is considered a senior cat. I'll do what I can for him and hope he perks up soon. He's still sitting by the fountain on the hard, cold floor.
    Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups

  24. #15599
    Senior Member Angiebla's Avatar
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    I’m confused about the blockage? Usually, even when they only can’t urinate once, they cath them and keep the overnight or however long it takes for them to urinate on their own regularly.

    I’ve seen an upper respiratory infection kick a cats ass. That explains the goopy eyes and lack of appetite. Convenia is a strong antibiotic and should help with that.

    The fluids thing sucks, as some cats won’t sit still for them. Good luck. I just tent the skin on the nape towards the back and put the needle in. My cat was a sqwarmer so my husband held the bag up while I kept the needle in place.

    He is really handsome, is he a Bengal?

    I know 10 is considered old for some, but I don’t consider it old for small dogs and cats.

    "The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man" -Charles Darwin

    Quote Originally Posted by bowieluva View Post
    Chelsea, if you are a ghost and reading mds, I command you to walk into the light.

  25. #15600
    Senior Member marycontrary's Avatar
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    He's improving daily. Has moments when he acts like his old self. Finally doing some actual resting and fully laying down. He is still laying next to the water dish, but has moved to the pet bed rather than the cold, hard floor. No longer holding his mouth wide open and has quit drooling. He began visiting the kitchen sink for a drink out of a dirty pot from rice that I left to soak. I'm leaving a pan of water for him in the sink and he is getting good long drinks from it today. He's still not using his pet fountain for water and he is paddling the water in the sink before drinking. He's not shown one bit of interest in getting his feet wet before this illness.

    Still no interest in food, but he is horribly stuffy and sneezy. Sprays me with mucous regularly, yuck. I've offered some of his favorite foods that he refuses, so I'm feeding a jar of pureed chicken baby food daily. He seems to like it as I don't have to hold him down to put the syringe in his mouth and then he examines the syringe each time, trying to sniff it. So congested. I opened a bag of temptations cat treats and he knows that sound and came for some treats. He readily ate them as long as I gave them from my hand. He won't eat them from the floor. I think he is refusing food because he can't smell. Drinking was a bigger deal for me because I certainly didn't want to bolus him with a needle. Every day he is improving and acting more normal. He sure was miserable last Sunday. I had no idea a cat could drool so much.

    He's coming around for some affection periodically and did some grooming today. I think he'll get over this eventually. I hope this head cold is short lived. His little buddy is now full on sick with it. Also doing some changes in behavior, but still eating and drinking.

    I think it was this head cold thing all along and must feel pretty shitty before they begin producing mucous. In hindsight, anesthesia was probably the last thing he needed. He was still looking pretty high last night even. Today he is alert and his eyes look more open and focused and clear. I dunno about this bladder thing. They did want to keep him overnight, but I chose to bring him home because no one staffs the vet at night. I would take him to the emergency vet that's only open at night if he showed signs of not being able to void. I've not seen him pee, but he must be going because he has had enough fluid to have filled his bladder by now. I put a pee pad next to the litter box in case he associated pain with the litter box. One or more cats used it, lol, but none of the urine was dark or rusty colored. He had his bladder emptied Tuesday so I figure he has had to have gone since then. He didn't show one sign of having a bladder infection so if the vet is being truthful, his having a cold and ending up a teeth cleaning and antibiotics might have been a blessing. The whole bad tooth thing is weird too. He gets regular vet visits and they have always said his teeth looked great. It is what it is Ka-ching $$. I'm just glad he is coming around. He is such a sweet cat.

    Our other cat is full on sick with a head cold now. He must have sneezed 20 times in a row, poor guy. He's still eating and drinking, but I'll keep a close eye on him too.

    Moe is a real Bengal. Faux is the other sick cat, who is a fake craigslist Bengal I paid $35 for from a farmer. Faux has lots of spots.
    Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups

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